"How can you honestly attack pastor Murray for asking for an offering?"

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"How can you honestly attack Pastor Murray for asking for an offering?"

Question/Comment:

----- Original Message -----

From: Emailer #264

To: Paul Stringini

Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2015 6:49 PM

Subject: Arnold Murray

I just came upon your website and as a Shepherd's Chapel viewer, it saddens me the way you slander Pastor Murray simply because you don't agree with his bible teaching, which is straight from the bible. There are many things you have accused pastor Murray of either, "making up" or misinterpreting the scriptures...nonetheless, since there are so many, I don't want to debate with you on them because I have noticed that you only understand scriptures the way you interpret them..... aside from that, I do want to ask you why you ask for donations but you criticized Shepherd's Chapel for doing the same thing?I hope you realize that all people who use television have to pay for the air time they use because nobody can get on tv for free....furthermore, I don't know of any church that doesn't ask for donations or pass around a collection plate to keep the lights on,buy hym books,etc.... I don't know of any book store that gives away bibles either...so how can you honestly attack pastor Murray for asking for an offering from anyone he's helped so that he could remain on the air? you seem like a hypocrite to me..... another thing, pastor Murray has NEVER mentioned any church leader or any religious organization and he never judged any either,he asked viewers not to ask questions about particular people or churches. I respect the Shepherd's Chapel and enjoy listening to them and I haven't found anything false about their teachings because I use my own bible to make sure of it..... I used to believe in the rapture because I was taught it in both Baptist and Church of Christ, until I actually searched the scriptures for myself and learned the truth after I first heard pastor Murray teaching about it.... you say people shouldn't listen to man,or something to that effect, however YOU are a man,right? so what makes you think someone like me shouldn't listen to SCN,but should listen to you? we aren't to rely solely on man to learn the teachings of the bible because everything is written in the bible, the Word of God..... not every man who teaches the bible are false teachers and pastor Murray wasn't a false teacher.

My First Response:

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To: Emailer #264

Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 3:46 PM

Subject: Re: Arnold Murray

Hi, Thanks for visiting my website and for sharing your opinion. I think some of your statements are based on a misunderstanding, and I want to clear that up.

I just came upon your website and as a Shepherd's Chapel viewer,it saddens me the way you slander pastor Murray simply because you don't agree with his bible teaching,which is straight from the bible.

Yes, I call Arnold Murray a false teacher, because I disagree with his bible teachings, but I never slander him. Slander is the action or crime of making a false statement damaging to a person's reputation.  Having the opinion that Arnold Murray is a false teacher based on the fact that I disagree with his teachings is not "slander". Labeling Pastor Murray as a false teacher is a matter of my opinion verses your opinion, and not slander.   Any other negative remarks I make about Pastor Murray are based on things he actually says and my opinions of them, none of these remarks can be called slander. You accuse me of slander merely because I disagree with Pastor Murray.

To say that Arnold Murray's teachings come straight from the bible is based on misinformation you obtained from Arnold Murray, and it honestly hurts me every time I hear someone say that. Arnold Murray was not the "straight-shooter" he tried to pass himself off as. For example, when the bible clearly states that Cain was the result of the union between Adam and Eve in Genesis 4:1, Arnold Murray does not take his cues "straight from the bible" but rather, he instructs his students to ignore what the bible actually says and to rather read into the text his own ideas about what "really happened." (Editorial Comment: I would also mention that when Jesus stated that the Jews which disputed with him in John 8 were the seed of Abraham, Arnold Murray contradicts Christ ans puts words in his mout asserting that Jesus meant to say that they "CLAIMED" to be the seed of Abraham).

Arnold Murray uses manipulative language in his teachings to bully the listener into agreeing with him. For example, I was listening to him the other day and he gave one of his opinions regarding some verse, and then he pretended to make an objection such as one who disagreed might make, he then followed that with a typical, "You are not disagreeing with me, friend, you are disagreeing with God's word." And many such like things he does at entirely inappropriate times. That may seem like a very harsh opinion to you, but it is not slander by any stretch of the imagination. I'm looking at the guys methods and explaining to people why they are unacceptable. A lot of people who listen to Arnold Murray dislike him immediately based on the way he talks down to people and manipulates people, often they do not know how to express this dislike, I'm just dissecting and exposing what he does. Pastor Murray does not have a good reputation as a teacher to be damaged, he is widely regarded as a false teacher by many people who examine his teachings in the light of scripture and find them unacceptable.

There are many things you have accused pastor Murray of either,"making up" or misinterpreting the

scriptures...nonetheless,since there are so many,I don't want to debate with you on them because

I have noticed that you only understand scriptures the way you interpret them.....

As a former student of the Shepherd's Chapel and Arnold Murray, I am not likely to ever be persuaded by any Chapel student to go back. But that is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. Just because you don't think you will persuade me, you are going to take a pass on defending the things you believe in? Pardon me for saying so, but If I were you, I'd feel pretty ashamed of myself. Thousands of people visit my website every month, and you might be the one who can defend the truth, but you are not going to because of the way I understand the scriptures?

Arnold Murray builds up the pride of his students, but I find that very few of them are actually willing to lay it on the line for what they believe in. When it is time to stand against Satan, do you think you will do better against him than against me? Think again. (Comment: If he doesn't feel like defending his beliefs because he cannot persuade me, then how does he expect to stand against the Devil, for there will be no persuading him.) I don't say this to offend you, but to provoke you, because in spite of the fact that you are under the influence of a false teacher, I regard you as a Christian, and as Christians we ought to be ready to defend our faith and stand up for the truth. What you are doing here is just making a convenient excuse.

aside from that,

I do want to ask you why you ask for donations but you criticized Shepherd's Chapel for doing the same thing?

I never, ever, ever, have asked for donations. That is nearly slander, but I'm not going to hold it against you. I have never asked for a single donation for anything. People wrote me and asked if they could donate to my site and so I created a way that they could donate. But I have never asked for a donation for anything from anyone. That is totally wrong. In fact I'm going to write that under my donate button to make it clear, because you guys don't seem to get it. I'm not asking for squat. You misinterpret the existence of a donate button as a "request" but it is not a request. I accept donations, I do not ask for them, ever, period.

Now, there is nothing wrong with taking donations, or even asking for donations. And Pastor Murray basically taught the same thing, but at the same time, his students somehow have the idea that it is wrong to accept money for conducting a ministry. I get abusive emails from chapel students all the time accusing me of having my "begging bowl" out and all that. Why is that? I'll tell you why, it is because Pastor Murray teaches out of both sides of his mouth. He slams people for "begging" (which is asking for money, donating) and brags about how he never takes a salary "for teaching" Then his precious little minions (this was not a generous characterization) go out and slam every ministry that accepts donations such as mine. Arnold Murray asks for money, I do not ask for money, but if they are going to slam me for accepting donations, they need to wake up and see what a bunch of hypocrites they are.

I hope you realize that all people who use television have to pay for the air time they use because

nobody can get on tv for free....

It basically goes to the old adage, "People who live in glass houses should not throw bricks" If you have a television ministry that is supported by donations, donations that you ask for every single broadcast, then you should not rip into other ministries for doing the exact same thing.

furthermore, I don't know of any church that doesn't ask for donations

Well, now you know one ministry that does not ask for donations. My internet ministry costs me about $220 per year, and I never have to ask for donations to keep it going. One of the things I liked about Pastor Murray was that I felt his ministry was different when it came to money. But it really was not, he just TALKED different about money, dishonestly, and I fell for it. And it all came out when he cracked down on his students for putting Chapel studies up on youtube. Finally, a way to get the word of God to people for almost nothing, and Murray hated it.

or pass around a collection plate to keep the lights on,buy hym books,etc....

Passing the plate is something Arnold did not approve of. He preferred a "box in the back"

I don't know of any book store that gives away bibles either...

In all fairness, then you don't even know the Chapel, because if you call them up and claim you are very poor, but would really like to have a certain book or tape, they will give it to you. I have never done that, but I do know that they do that. Otherwise the whole "donation" thing would be a sham. The Gideon's give away Bibles, and so do many other Christian ministries. (Comment: Let it never be said I am not fair)

so how can you honestly attack pastor Murray for asking for an offering

from anyone he's helped so that he could remain on the air? you seem like a hypocrite to me.....

I think I explained this. It is because he rips into other ministries for asking for donations. That's hypocrisy. And I have made my position clear on many occasions, and I don't really know how you are getting this idea from me. It is perfectly acceptable to accept donations and even to ask for them, but it is hypocritical for Pastor Murray to give his students the impression that he is superior to other ministries in that he "never begs" when he does the same things they do.

another thing,pastor Murray has NEVER mentioned any church leader or any religious organization

That is not correct, back in the 90's on the air he read from a newspaper article entitled "Sometimes it Pays to Obfuscate" (which was a terrible article) He was so mad at that "Revolving Rev" that he mentioned his name. But generally you are correct, he does not mention anyone by name, but so what? Why is that a virtue? To me it is just a case of him not wanting to ruffle any feathers and make enemies. In the bible the Apostles often named those who were teaching false doctrine. And why not? That makes the most sense. Why hint at them? Why the secrecy? There is nothing admirable about him doing that, it's actually a very cowardly way to conduct yourself when teaching against someone. If you oppose the teachings of the Catholic Church why not come out and say so, that way people know what to look out for.

I speak against Pastor Murray by name because I want people to know exactly who I'm talking about so they can totally avoid the ministry of the Shepherd's Chapel and Pastor Arnold Murray. I'm not going to hint at who I'm talking about, like I'm afraid of retribution or something, bring it on.

and he never judged any either,he asked viewers not to ask questions about particular people or churches.

So what? Jesus told us to beware of false prophets, and that we would know them by their fruits, there is nothing in the bible that says we need to protect their reputations or refuse to mention them by name. This is no virtue in what Arnold Murray does when it comes to this. It is simply not biblical. The scriptures teach the opposite. We need to mark those who cause divisions and offenses.

I respect the Shepherd's Chapel and enjoy listening to them and I haven't found anything false about their teachings because I use my own bible to make sure of it.....

That does not help when you simply repeat the same errors that Arnold Murray makes by reading his false interpretations into the scriptures. There are all kinds of false teachers and false doctrines out there, and they all use the bible.

I used to believe in the rapture because I was taught it in both Baptist and Church of Christ,until I actually searched the scriptures for myself and learned the truth after I first heard pastor Murray teaching about it....

Just because he showed you one false doctrine does not make him a true teacher. His serpent seed doctrine is as false as the rapture theory and I challenge you to check out the REST of the scriptures for yourself and find out the truth about the serpent seed,   http://oraclesofgod.org/questions/audio/003_The_Seed_of_the_Serpent.mp3

you say people shouldn't listen to man,or something to that effect,

Everything we know about God comes from some man. Whether is be the apostles or prophets or Arnold Murray, or me. God speaks through men. That doesn't mean we just trust every man who speaks for God.

however YOU are a man,right? so what makes you think someone like me shouldn't listen to SCN,but should

listen to you?

Well, you have listened to SCN, but you have not heard me out. You've got one side of it. Based on your statements here I don't think you've given me a fair shake, but that's up to you. You have to decide who is speaking the truth and who is speaking falsely but you ought to hear someone out before you judge them. All you seem to be trying to do here is shut me up, and where do you get the right to shut me up?

we aren't to rely solely on man to learn the teachings of the bible because everything is written in the bible,

the Word of God.....

That is fine when it comes to the Apostles and Prophets, but men who teach the word must be judged based on the fruit of their doings.

not every man who teaches the bible are false teachers

Of course.

and pastor Murray wasn't a false teacher.

Oh yes he was, and if your faith in him is that strong then listen to this and see if it holds up. http://oraclesofgod.org/questions/audio/003_The_Seed_of_the_Serpent.mp3

Sincerely,

Paul Stringini

Emailer's First Reply:

----- Original Message -----

From: Emailer #264

To: Paul Stringini

Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 7:22 PM

Subject: Re: Arnold Murray

slandering doesn't have to be a crime,it's the same as smearing someone's reputation,as you have smeared Arnold Murray...if you think he's a false teacher,then why don't you stop watching his program,which his son has taken over since his passing? you are accusing and criticizing him because you disagree with his understanding of the scriptures and you want everyone else to agree with "your" understanding,plain and simple...I cannot believe the hatred you have for a man who is now deceased! I disagree with the Catholic teachings,but I'm not interested in making myself an online ministry to slander/smear,etc. the Catholic church...I do,however,join in debates on social media with Catholics who accuse non-Catholics of being heretics.... you say you don't ask for donations,yet I'm sure you don't turn them down or else you wouldn't have a "donate" section on your site...you say it costs you $220 a year to use the internet for your ministry? well,that's on you and it doesn't even compare to what it costs to use tv air time and satellite radio...pastor Murray only criticized people who use religion for the sole purpose of making money,which he didn't do....you accuse me of trying to shut you up? no,I emailed you because you are trying to shut anyone up who listens to SCN,which includes me.... you don't have to watch,listen to or agree with SCN...if you were a true minister,you wouldn't be judging anyone and then accuse people of judging you for doing exactly the same thing..... I have news for you,while you accuse pastor Murray of false teaching,what makes you a true teacher? what makes you think you know more than anyone else? you are arrogant..... as far as Cain goes,show a bible scripture where he is included in Adam's genealogy..... Eve was beguiled/seduced by Satan to believe him instead of what God commanded,which is how the serpent seed was planted.... we are to eat from the tree of life,which is to believe in God,not a false god,which is Satan himself....Eve ate (believed) from the wrong tree and Adam followed her..they were both seduced by Satan,which is man's fall even today..... eating the flesh of Christ is to believe in him,not literally eat him,as Adam and Eve didn't literally eat a piece of fruit..... weather or not Eve had sex with Satan or not,I don't know because to seduce means both sexually or powerfully.... I pointed out to you what I believe happened.... I just starting watching SCN a few months ago,although I haven't watched every segment,I have yet to find fault with pastor Murray's teaching...I have not found Cain in Adam's genealogy.... I don't put my faith in pastor Murray,as you have suggested..... you seem to suggest that I put my faith into your teachings and listen to the links you have posted in order to rebuke pastor Murray...what makes you any better than pastor Murray or anyone else for that matter? you're telling me I have to decide who is speaking the truth and who is speaking falsely... let me guess,it's you who speaks the truth? lol..... of course.... you might want to make absolutely certain that you are teaching 100% accurately without any doubts before judging anyone else.... if pastor Murray has been in error at all,I do not believe it was intentional or to deceive anyone as you so blatantly accuse him of doing.

----- Original Message -----

From: Emailer #264

To: Paul Stringini

Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 8:08 PM

Subject: pastor Murray

one more thing,you don't speak for many people who watch SCN.... you say a lot of people who listen to Arnold Murray dislike him immediately

based on the way he talks down to people and manipulates people? I haven't heard him do that... give some examples.....

you also say he is regared by many people as a false teacher? who are those people? the ones who agree with you and join in on the smearing of Arnold Murray? I'm not trying to "persuade" you into anything... I think you clearly have it in for pastor Murray and you're trying your hardest to persuade other people into hating him as much as you do..... if you disagree with him so much,then all you have to do is not listen to SCN any longer,but instead,you embelish in smearing him and encourage others to join you,which is not very Christian of you,is it? you have a right to dicern and judge for yourself between right and wrong,but simply expressing hatred toward others by way of internet,claiming to be a minister,is morally wrong as far as I'm concerned....pastor Murray didn't "beg" for donations,his teachings are broadcasted through tithes and offerings and he asked for them from anyone who felt he had helped them.... quite a big difference from "begging".Boy,you sure can't stand the man,can you? you have a heart full of hate for someone claiming to be a minister of the Word of God! teach the way you want and stop watching SCN if you hate it so much.

My Second Response:

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To: Emailer #264

Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 6:10 PM

Subject: Re: Arnold Murray

Hi, Thanks for writing back.

slandering doesn't have to be a crime,

I did not say it did.  I give you the definition again.

Slander is the action or crime of making a false statement damaging to a person's reputation.

"OR"

it's the same as smearing someone's reputation, as you have smeared Arnold Murray...

Slander is not smearing someone. Slander is smearing someone falsely. Name one false statement I have made about Murray or his teachings and I will correct it publicly. I'm talking about demonstrably false statements about him or his teachings, not just legitimate differences of opinion.

I've made legitimate opinioned observations about the man's public statements and actions. That is not slander. That is my opinion of his documented doings.   If a man does something in public, that is subject to public scrutiny and if they don't like it they can take his program off the air. If I go out in public and say things, it is not slander for someone to dispute my claims and call them false.

if you think he's a false teacher,then why don't you stop watching his program,which his son has taken over since his passing?

I don't watch his program, at least, not very frequently, but I have gone back to many tape collection from time to time when needed (I have all his tapes up to 1996). I was once one of his students and I got most all of him I care to stomach years ago. What I do now is out of my sense of obligation, I supported his ministry, so now I oppose it to repay my debt.

you are accusing and criticizing him because you disagree with his understanding of the scriptures

Yes, I disagree with him. Thank you very much for recognizing that, sincerely. I get tired of being accused of knowingly opposing "the truth." I have a legitimate difference of opinion.

and you want everyone else to agree with "your" understanding,plain and simple...

No, that is not really true, I just want to find the people whom God has ordained should hear the truth. I do not want everyone to agree with me, because it is not given to all men to hear the truth. I would think it was strange if everyone agreed with me.

Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

I cannot believe the hatred you have for a man who is now deceased!

Come on. If you were a student of Arnold Murray, you would not think of him as dead. According to his own teaching, Arnold Murray yet lives, he is in heaven right now. Plus, I still can see his face on TV if I want to, can't I? So we still have to deal with the living version of him. I see no reason to take special care when speaking of a dead man.

I disagree with the Catholic teachings, but I'm not interested in making myself an online ministry to slander/smear,etc. the Catholic church...

Well, If I had been a big supporter of that Church, I might. I don't go after the Catholics because I really have no history with the Catholics. My history is with Arnold Murray, he was my teacher, and I supported his ministry.

And I would like to add that I did not make my online ministry to smear Murray. I take exception to that! I have had an online ministry since 1998. I did not come out in opposition to Arnold Murray until 2007. My online ministry is much more than my opposition to Arnold Murray. For example I have hundreds of hours of free line by line bible studies that people can download and there is the scripture music. Arnold Murray is just a sideshow for me. I'm repaying an old debt.

I do,however,join in debates on social media with Catholics who accuse non-Catholics of being heretics....

Well, every point of view is going to have it's heretics. Whether we like to use that term or not.

you say you don't ask for donations,yet I'm sure you don't turn them down or else you wouldn't have a "donate" section on your site...

So what? Why should I turn down a donation from someone who wants to support my ministry? Where did you develop this animosity towards people supporting works they believe in? People want to encourage me to continue the work. And I need to be encouraged. Plus, I do a lot of work and put a lot of hours in. I gladly accept their donations. I just do not ask for them, that would be begging, and one of the things I liked about Murray, back when I liked him, was that he indicated a strong distaste for beggary. I don't like begging.

I wonder how much money you think comes pouring in. I do not do what I do for money.

you say it costs you $220 a year to use the internet for your ministry? well,that's on you

I have no problem with that. But that is not a biblical perspective. Those who partake of my gifts, OUGHT to give me money, because what I do is more valuable than their money. You don't like my works, but if you did, you would technically owe me. I don't hold that over people, I figure when the Lord moves them, they will do what is right or perhaps they will give back to the Lord in some other way by giving to the needy or something, so long as they give back to the Lord, it does not have to go to me. You do not have to give where you are fed. Give where it is needed most.

and it doesn't even compare to what it costs to use tv air time and satellite radio...

Well, that should be on him, personally. Isn't that what you say? You are being hypocritical. I have old tapes from back when they were getting that satellite dish (Big Momma) You go on to call me arrogant. But what kind of arrogant person needs his own satellite network? Murray thought what he was doing was very important. He was documented as a false prophet. http://oraclesofgod.org/1980/1980.htm I did this work myself.

pastor Murray only criticized people who use religion for the sole purpose of making money,which he didn't do....

That is a bit of a stretch, but let's say that is 100% accurate... somewhere along the way his students get this attitude that anyone besides Murray who is receiving money for ministry is doing so unrighteously. Murray says it is totally acceptable for a Pastor to take a salary, I've got him on tape. But somehow you guys didn't get the memo and I get emails almost weekly bashing me for merely accepting donations, even though everything I've done is available for free and I've never asked a dime for it.

you accuse me of trying to shut you up? no,I emailed you because you are trying to shut anyone up who listens to SCN,which includes me....

If you want to argue the doctrines of Arnold Murray, I will "shut you up" in the sense that I will put your arguments to silence. But I have never taken any steps intended to curtail the free speech rights of any person. Even though such actions have been taken against me by students of the Chapel.

you don't have to watch,listen to or agree with SCN...

That may be so, but when I was young and impressionable, Arnold Murray invaded my home with his broadcast. No one has to listen to me either, did you ever think of that? But if someone is questioning the doctrines of Arnold Murray, do they not have the right to find someone who can tell them clearly why he is full of hot air?

if you were a true minister,you wouldn't be judging anyone and then accuse people of judging you for doing exactly the same thing.....

And what are you doing?  Judging and accusing me?. Is that what you are doing? If you are not judging me, then I am not judging Murray. You are judging my words and actions, my fruit, I'm sure you are not actually judging my soul or anything. As I do not judge your soul or Murray's. I judge his false teachings and hypocritical acts, sure. That is what we are called to do, you are free to judge my words, you ought to do it!

I have news for you,while you accuse pastor Murray of false teaching,what makes you a true teacher?

Well, for one, I don't teach the false doctrines Murray taught. That is a good start. But what makes Murray a true teacher? What makes anyone a true teacher? I am a true teacher because I preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ in purity and without corruption. That's what makes me a true teacher. But you have to listen to me teach to judge for yourself. http://oraclesofgod.org/studies/index.htm

what makes you think you know more than anyone else?

I do not think I know more than anyone else.   That is closer to slander than anything I ever said about Murray. Not that I mind. But that is a false statement. I could say the same thing about Murray, "What makes Murray think he knows more than anyone else!" but I never do, because that would be close to slander, and I don't do that.

you are arrogant.....

You are entitled to your opinion. That is not slander, but opinion. But consider the fact that I have publicly corrected my errors on several occasions, for example "You Are the Fraud!" One of My Inaccuracies is Pointed Out by a Sharp Shepherd's Chapel Student  http://oraclesofgod.org/emails/email094.htm So your opinion may be incorrect.

as far as Cain goes,show a bible scripture where he is included in Adam's genealogy.....

Genesis 4
1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

There it is, in plain black and white. That is the beginning of Cain's Genealogy, when you skip down from the parenthesis explaining Cain's crime you find the continuation of Cain's Genealogy:

17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

Notice the exact same wording, but do you doubt that Cain was the father of that Enoch? So why would you doubt that Adam was the father of Cain?

Adam had many sons and daughters which are not named in Chapter 5. That is because they were not in the line of Noah. But the bible clearly puts Adam in Cain's Genealogy. Cain was rejected from the inheritance line in a similar fashion as Esau, Reuben, and Ishmael, other firstborns were rejected. Notice, Rueben is not in Christ's Genealogy, But that does not mean that Jacob was not his father.

Arnold Murray basically tells you not to believe this scripture (Genesis 4:1). You should believe what Arnold Murray says is hidden in the "manuscripts" and not in what is plainly written there translated by better scholars than he ever was. (That is opinion, not slander)

Eve was beguiled/seduced by Satan to believe him instead of what God commanded,which is how the serpent seed was planted....

She was not seduced. That is a misreading of the Greek. That word has nothing to do with sexual seduction. http://oraclesofgod.org/questions/audio/003_The_Seed_of_the_Serpent.mp3

Does "Expattio!" Really Mean Sexually Seduced? Or Is Arnold Murray Deceiving Us?

http://oraclesofgod.org/shepherds_chapel/exapatao.htm

we are to eat from the tree of life,which is to believe in God,not a false god,which is Satan himself....

I agree with that.

Eve ate (believed) from the wrong tree and Adam followed her..they were both seduced by Satan,which is man's fall even today.....

If you mean "seduced" as in "wholly deceived" I agree. But there was no sex in Eden.

eating the flesh of Christ is to believe in him,not literally eat him,as Adam and Eve didn't literally eat a piece of fruit.....

How do you know they did not literally eat a piece of fruit? That is CRITICAL. They had to eat a piece of fruit, because that is what GOD told them NOT to do! If they did not eat the fruit, then there is no disobedience. It can't just be all in their heads, they had to act on the thought. The action proves the belief. If they did not believe God, but ate no fruit, then where was the sin? God did not say "Thou shalt believe me." He said they should not eat of a particular tree which is described as growing from the ground and bearing edible fruit. Real actions symbolizing spiritual truth, but do not throw out the reality. Remember Saul, disobedience is as witchcraft, you seem to underestimate the sin of disobedience. It does not matter how small the actual act is. It is the principle. I mean, it says in black and white that they ate fruit, if you want to say it is all an allegory or something I suppose I could deal with that, but the story is that they ate fruit, don't change the story, that is not right!

weather or not Eve had sex with Satan or not,I don't know

Well, you are not in line with the Shepherd's Chapel then.

because to seduce means both sexually or powerfully....

In English, yes, but not in the Greek. In the Greek the word exapatao does not indicate sexual seduction in any way. They have a word for sexual seduction and I go over that in the study I linked.

I pointed out to you what I believe happened.... I just starting watching SCN a few months ago,although I haven't watched every segment,I have yet to find fault with pastor Murray's teaching...

Give it time then. I can't respond to a general assertion like that. I studied with him for several years before I began to have serious doubts.

I have not found Cain in Adam's genealogy....

Genesis 4:1 Black and White. Adam is father of all, we are all in his genealogy. Also the Enmity was between the woman's seed and the serpent's seed, not the Man's seed and the serpent's seed. You should listen to my teaching on the serpent seed. http://oraclesofgod.org/questions/audio/003_The_Seed_of_the_Serpent.mp3

I don't put my faith in pastor Murray,as you have suggested..... you seem to suggest that I put my faith into your teachings and listen to the links you have posted in order to rebuke pastor Murray...what makes you any better than pastor Murray or anyone else for that matter?

What makes you think you are fit to judge who you ought to listen to? And how can you judge any mans words without hearing them first?

I never said you should trust me. Do what you are led to do. I trust God to lead people to me who need my service. If you want to rob my time and ask rhetorical questions which you yourself cannot answer then you can answer for that for yourself.

you're telling me I have to decide who is speaking the truth and who is speaking falsely...

Yes, you have to judge for yourself. I'm not going to hold your hand for you. I can't believe you are taking issue with my saying that it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to determine what you will believe.

let me guess,it's you who speaks the truth? lol..... of course....

Everyone thinks they speak the truth. If you want to be irresponsible and flip about it, don't expect me to weep over you.

you might want to make absolutely certain that you are teaching 100% accurately without any doubts before judging anyone else....

No, I don't mind taking correction. I have no problem humbly accepting reproof, and I have a track record of doing so. If we are too cowardly to risk anything we will sit on our hands and do nothing while the wicked run rampant teaching lies.

if pastor Murray has been in error at all,I do not believe it was intentional or to deceive anyone as you so blatantly accuse him of doing.

You are slandering me again.

one more thing,you don't speak for many people who watch SCN....

I do speak for some, they tell me so. As someone who has talked to literally hundreds of people about the Shepherd's Chapel, I know what I am talking about. You are just one person with your own personal opinion.

you say a lot of people who listen to Arnold Murray dislike him immediately based on the way he talks down to people and manipulates people?

Yes, some people say that. Many in my own family felt that way (but not me).

I haven't heard him do that... give some examples.....

Sure, listen to his seed planting tapes.

you also say he is regared by many people as a false teacher? who are those people?

Use Google.

the ones who agree with you and join in on the smearing of Arnold Murray?

Arnold Murray has many who think he is a false teacher. That is a fact. It does not prove anything. I generally don't make a point of this. I was responding your statement that I was ruining his reputation. His reputation is that he is a false teacher. It does not prove that he is a false teacher. It's just a fact. It is not a fact I have ever used against him. I only used it to say that the guy has no reputation to lose,

I'm not trying to "persuade" you into anything... I think you clearly have it in for pastor Murray and you're trying your hardest to persuade other people into hating him as much as you do.....

You are entitled to your opinion. I do hate what he does.

if you disagree with him so much,then all you have to do is not listen to SCN any longer,but instead,you embelish in smearing him and encourage others to join you,which is not very Christian of you,is it?

It is very Christian. The Apostles routinely did so and if you were a bible student you wouldn't have to ask me for references, would you?

you have a right to dicern and judge for yourself between right and wrong,but simply expressing hatred toward others by way of internet,

Slander. It's funny that a guy so concerned about slander would so recklessly engage in making slanderous remarks.

claiming to be a minister,is morally wrong as far as I'm concerned....

You do persuade me to hold your opinions in low regard.

pastor Murray didn't "beg" for donations,

Asking for donations is the politically correct term for begging. I really don't have a problem with begging. It is just that it was hypocritical of him to do it.

his teachings are broadcasted through tithes and offerings and he asked for them from anyone who felt he had helped them.... quite a big difference from "begging".

Hey, you are entitled to see that any way you like. I say it is HYPOCRISY.

Boy,you sure can't stand the man,can you?

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

There is bad hate and good hate. I don't hate Murray, I hate his ways.

Psalm 119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

you have a heart full of hate for someone claiming to be a minister of the Word of God!

I love the people who are victimized by Murray, and who suffer due to the effects of his ministry, you can ignore it if you like, but I can't. You would rather I turned a blind eye as the ministry I once supported teaches falsely in the name of Christ. That would be hatred.

teach the way you want and stop watching SCN if you hate it so much.

No, I supported that ministry, and now that I know it is false I have to make up for that. I owe it to the young people who sincerely want to know more about the Lord, but do not realize what a mess they are getting into with Murray. You are asking me to hate Murray and all those who study with them. If you cannot see in all my effort on their behalf, sincere love, then you are blind. I endure mockings and threats for your sake, and you laugh at me. You still think of Murray as some sort of underdog. He has Sam Walton's lawyers to defend him, he does not need you.

Sincerely,

Paul Stringini

Emailer's Second Reply:

----- Original Message -----

From: Emailer #264

To: Paul Stringini

Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 2:56 AM

Subject: Re: Arnold Murray

I haven't slandered you...maybe you don't understand what slandering means.... you have an online "ministry" where you accuse pastor Murray of being a false teacher on one hand and then defend your actions by saying it's only your "opinions",which is a load of bs.....it's quite obvious and clear that you are "accusing" Arnold Murray and attacking his character by accusing him of intentionally lying and manipulating people and talking down to them,which is slander and a darn shame that he is no longer here to defend himself against you're accusations.You are a hateful,arrogant person and trust me,I would never "expect you" to weep over me...you said that everyone thinks they speak the truth? well,that includes you,no matter how many links you post and think that people need to listen to them,Mr. not-so holier than thou..... you said, "I trust God to lead people to me who need my service" AND you also said, "Those who partake of my gifts, OUGHT to give me money, because what I do is more valuable than their money. You don't like my works, but if you did, you would technically owe me"...... REALLY? then you defend your "donate" section by saying you don't beg or ask for money,while criticizing SCN....talk about being HYPOCRITICAL,LOL...yes,I laugh at you because you obviously cannot see your own arrogance.... giving money to "you" is just that....it would go to you.....giving donations to SCN helps keep them on the air and radio...can you not understand that? giving money to you would be for what? paying you internet bill? I spread the Word of God for FREE,to the best of my knowledge to anyone who has questions......I don't have an online ministry website or a tv/radio program...the difference in you and SCN is that you use your computer,which you say costs you about $220 a year,whereas SCN uses television and radio broadcasting that costs MUCH more than $220 a year in order to CONTINUE helping people via: tv/radio....who do you have to pay in order to keep your ministry going,besides your internet provider?..... my point is,you shouldn't judge SCN over any donations they ask for,which is NOT begging..... and you also might want to do away with your "donate" section on your website if you claim you don't ask for donations,the donate section speaks for itself without "asking",don't you think? anyway.... concerning Cain,you quoted Genesis 4:1 and then said,"Black and White,Adam is the father of all,we are all in his genealogy".... first of all,Genesis 4:1 does NOT say Adam is father of all,however,Genesis 3:20 says Eve was the mother of all living.....who do you think the serpent is,for which enmity was between it/his seed and Eve's? the serpent is SATAN,which means Eve had to have had sex with Satan.... do you agree that metaphors and parables were used by Jesus and are found throughout the bible? if you don't understand metaphors and parables,then you will not understand the scriptures and can easily misunderstand what you read;not all scriptures are to be understood as literal....you have to search for corresponding scriptures to help with your studies,such as in the case of Cain and who his real father was...I told you that I don't know weather or not Eve had sex with Satan,however,upon further careful studying,I am convinced that she in deed had sex with Satan,the serpent,as he is called in Genesis 3:1...."trees" are used in a figurative sense to describe people, races and nations,such as in Ezekiel 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden,that were in the garden of God,envied him...... "fruit" represents offspring/descendants....both Adam and Eve were naked and not ashamed,innocent and perfect until they "touched" the tree God told them not to touch,which is to say,they both had sex with people they were forbidden to,and then they hid from God because they were ashamed of their nakedness;their eyes were opened and they knew both good and evil,as Genesis 3:22 says...... this is where I understand the meaning of adultery,both sexual and spiritual and also the meaning of being able to discern and judge people by their fruit;wickedness and righteousness;good and evil..... when God created man,didn't he say he created man in "their" image? wouldn't that suggest there must have been others,although maybe not human, before Adam and Eve? the "trees" in Eden were not literal trees because literal trees do not possess knowledge of good and evil and nor can they "envy" anything.... the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden is not about them literally eating a piece of fruit from a literal tree,as most of us were taught since childhood,apple and all....... furthermore, 1 John 3:12 Not as Cain,who was of that wicked one,and slew his brother.And wherefore slew he him?Because his own works were evil,and his brother's righteous..... who was "that wicked one"? Adam? or Satan?..... I think it's fair to say that nobody is perfect when it comes to interpreting the bible scriptures...and it's wrong to judge and accuse others of perverting the scriptures on purpose without 100% proof they are doing so....what reason would Arnold Murray have had to want to purposely deceive anyone? can you honestly answer that? just because he may have been a prudent teacher,it didn't make him a bad one.... why did you say to me,"What makes you think you are fit to judge who you ought to listen to?" ??? AGAIN,you are ARROGANT.... I am perfectly capable and "fit" to judge who I chose to listen to! I do quite well on my OWN by praying to the Lord to help guide me and also by listening to pastor Murray....no matter WHO I listen to,I always take time for myself to study the bible on my own.... It's good that you seek the Lord and want to help others,but condemning others who also seek the Lord and want to help others as you do,is just plain wrong..... you take offense to criticism,but have no problem in criticizing others..... why is that? I don't feel that pastor Murray is leading anyone astray...I feel that you understand the scriptures differently than he does and I think it would probably be better if you could just explain what the meaning of the verses are to you,in an adult manner,rather than accusing pastor Murray of being an all out liar and trying to manipulate people,which is a pretty bold assumption...... I know you didn't say I should trust you,but you do insist that I should listen to your mp3 links....... how do you know there was no sex ever in Eden? the word,"sex" is not in the bible..... a tree growing from the ground bearing edible fruit can imply a person or beast and their offspring,since all living creatures were formed from the ground/dust........Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat...... can a tree be desired to make a person wise? pleasant to the eyes? no... but a human,or the form of a human can.Eve was attracted to the "tree" she was told not to "touch",the tree was pleasant to the eyes,she saw the tree was good,Eve was beguiled/seduced by Satan......
Knowledge requires wisdom and the bible can be a bit complicated to understand,so it's not fair to assume you are wiser than others..... whatever is written in the bible can be debated when trying to understand what it says.

My Third Response:

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To: Emailer #264

Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 2:18 PM

Subject: Re: Arnold Murray

I haven't slandered you...maybe you don't understand what slandering means....

I really don't care about your definition of slander. My point from the beginning is that what I do is nothing like slander and you are totally wrong. I'm just throwing it back in your lap because it is obvious that you don't know what you are talking about. If what I do is slander, then what you do is slander. Get it? Not that I'm worried about it. Believe me, I don't really think you are slandering me, you just come closer to slander than I do.

Let's say you say I'm a jerk. That is not slander. Let's say You say I'm ripping people off, still not slander. Let's say you say I put subliminal messages in my bible studies for some sinister purpose, that's slander.

you have an online "ministry" where you accuse pastor Murray of being a false teacher on one hand and then defend your actions by saying it's only your "opinions",which is a load of bs.....

You are comparing apples and oranges. I'm saying that what I'm doing is expressing an opinion as opposed to "slander." From a biblical perspective I'm righteously exposing a false teacher. It is not really "just my opinion" that Arnold Murray is a false teacher, I consider it a demonstrable fact. I ONLY call it an opinion in a legal sense because you came to me talking about slander. I'm not trying to defend myself by saying its an opinion and not a fact. I'm trying to educate you because you can't tell the difference between an opinion and slander.

it's quite obvious and clear that you are "accusing" Arnold Murray and attacking his character by accusing him of intentionally lying and manipulating people and talking down to them,

He probably did it out of good intentions. I really would not know. But he manipulates people and talks down to them (knowingly or not, I don't know, and it is irrelevant, that is what he did). Some time I'll make a special page with audio clips to show instances of his abuse. If you have only studied with him a few months it is doubtful you have really opened your ears up. You are still in enamored by his down-home charm.   Some people see it right away. If you disagree with him you may be "just a little bit stupid" in the words of Arnold Murray. He uses flattery and psychological manipulation. Basically con-man techniques. "Don't trust me!" That is a classic confidence play. He disarms people as he talks himself up and promotes himself. "I never beg" He always had to sound the trumpet about what a superior guy he was. I really don't feel like explaining it to you. Go ahead, keep listening, if you like it, lick it up.

which is slander and a darn shame that he is no longer here to defend himself against you're accusations.

I've been doing this since 2007, he only died last year. Since the accusations are based on his recorded teachings, there is really nothing to dispute. He either does or does not do what he does.

Plus, Arnold Murray only responded to critics once. After that he basically decided to ignore all criticism. He never would have wanted to defend himself. And if you knew anything, you would know why a slick guy like him never would.

He had since 1981 to respond to his false prophecy charge, and chose to keep silence rather than apologize.

You are a hateful,arrogant person and trust me,

If I valued your opinion, that might actually mean something to me, but generally, that is not how people see me.

I would never "expect you" to weep over me...

You read so many other things into my words, do you wonder?

you said that everyone thinks they speak the truth? well,that includes you,

Yes, I said that.

no matter how many links you post and think that people need to listen to them,Mr. not-so holier than thou.....

I really don't follow the logic here, but I post the links because they contain valuable information and the truth concerning the teachings of Arnold Murray, you may turn a blind eye to them, but I am glad to report that many others do not.

you said, "I trust God to lead people to me who need my service" AND you also said, "Those who partake of my gifts, OUGHT to give me money, because what I do is more valuable than their money. You don't like my works, but if you did, you would technically owe me"...... REALLY?

That is absolutely right, a workman is worthy of his hire, but I don't care if it is money or whatever.  Give back to God, I'll gladly take mine down the road or pass it off to a more worthy cause.

then you defend your "donate" section by saying you don't beg or ask for money,while criticizing SCN....talk about being HYPOCRITICAL,LOL...

You still don't get it,   I'll say it one more time, please read this slowly.

I say: Accepting donations is ok, asking for donations is ok. But Arnold Murray brags about never begging. He then asks for donations, constantly, and criticizes other ministries for begging. He is an Hypocrite. All I do is point this out.

There is nothing hypocritical about my position. An impartial observer will clearly see that.

yes,I laugh at you because you obviously cannot see your own arrogance....

I don't laugh at your ignorance. I think it would be unseemly to laugh at a man's ignorance.

giving money to "you" is just that....it would go to you.....

I don't ask for donations. If people want to give me gifts, what is that to you? These are my friends. People who listen to my studies. No one ever gives me money saying "keep up the work against Murray!" I've never gotten one donation saying that. Not one. They usually say "I listen to your bible studies every day, thank you so much, it has been a great help to me in my walk."

giving donations to SCN helps keep them on the air and radio...can you not understand that?

And it also bought Arnold Murray a private plane and many other perks through the Soldiers of the Cross Corporation. So what? They don't need to be on the air. Arnold Murray was a documented false prophet. Why should such a person ever get support?

giving money to you would be for what? paying you internet bill?

I pay my own bills. I'm not asking you for a donation. People wrote me and said "I want to donate, can I have your address, can I donate online?" You are saying I should refuse their kindness? Like I said, these are my friends and I do not have any problem accepting their gifts.

I spread the Word of God for FREE,to the best of my knowledge to anyone who has questions......

I have hundreds of hours of recorded studies available for free, writings, music, etc. all for free. FREE FREE FREE I do so much stuff that people are inspired to donate to my ministry without ever being asked. Anyone ever slipped cash in your hand when you walk into a church? That happens to me.

Your free "stuff" is what? YOU? So where can I get your free stuff? Where did you record your bible studies? You can help yourself to my free stuff.

I don't have an online ministry website or a tv/radio program...

Oh, lazy, eh?

the difference in you and SCN is that you use your computer,which you say costs you about $220 a year,whereas SCN uses television and radio broadcasting that costs MUCH more than $220 a year in order to CONTINUE helping people via: tv/radio....

I really don't care about their costs. Arnold Murray is a false teacher. I don't want his ministry to reach people. This is not a line of argument that is going to impress me.

who do you have to pay in order to keep your ministry going,besides your internet provider?.....

Irrelevant. (Comment: Not only is it an irrelevant question, he never understood my original point, I never mentioned any internet provider, I said $220 was the annual cost of the hosting service for my website. Who I pay for hosting service is publicly available information, I'm not here to compensate for his laziness).

my point is,you shouldn't judge SCN over any donations they ask for,which is NOT begging.....

I get it, you have made your point, but I do not agree. The way that Arnold Murray talks about money is deceptive and manipulative, those who follow his teaching develop a distinctly negative attitude towards money going to any ministry other than the Shepherd's Chapel. That is no accident. It is a direct result of the irresponsible way that Arnold Murray taught.

and you also might want to do away with your "donate" section on your website if you claim you don't ask for donations,the donate section speaks for itself without "asking",don't you think?

Uh, no. Forget it. And it is not a "section" It is a single button on the Contact page. And I don't plaster it on all my teachings like Murray does. "Corinthians! Only $75 DONATION!"

Get this through your head. I accept donations. It is ok to accept donations, IT IS EVEN OK to even beg for donations, if you really really need them. ARNOLD MURRAY is the guy who asks for money and declares out of the other side of his mouth bragging that he "never begs," and all that, he is a hypocrite, it is intolerable.   I have no problem with Arnold Murray or anyone else asking for money, but to ask for money, and then rip into everyone else about it, is beyond the limit.

anyway.... concerning Cain,you quoted Genesis 4:1 and then said,"Black and White,Adam is the father of all,we are all in his genealogy".... first of all,Genesis 4:1 does NOT say Adam is father of all,

I didn't say that. I'm not going to argue with you about your misreading what I said Genesis 4:1 signifies. Adam had sex with eve and the result was Cain, that is what Genesis 4:1 says.

But Adam is father of all, where did Eve come from? Bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh... Eve was taken out of Adam.

But Genesis 4:1 is clear as a bell.

however,Genesis 3:20 says Eve was the mother of all living.....who do you think the serpent is,for which enmity was between it/his seed and Eve's? the serpent is SATAN,which means Eve had to have had sex with Satan....

Oh, that means Eve had to have sex with satan. What? That does not follow logically. "And Adam knew his wife and she concieved and bare Cain" That means they had sex and the result was Cain, that's a fact.

do you agree that metaphors and parables were used by Jesus and are found throughout the bible?

It is doubtful that this was a parable. The new testament cite's what happened in Eden as if it were history. This would not be a metaphor either. The word you need is Euphemism. "And Adam knew his wife and she concieved and bare Cain" Knew is a euphemism for "have sex with" That means they had sex and the result was Cain, that's a fact.

if you don't understand metaphors and parables,then you will not understand the scriptures and can easily misunderstand what you read;not all scriptures are to be understood as literal....

What you guys are doing is assigning "literal" or figurative" to particular scriptures in order to make them fit into your preconcieved idea of what the bible should say. You are manipulating the bible. You think you sound smart, but all you are doing is opening the bible up to any man's interpretation. In your case, Arnold Murray.

you have to search for corresponding scriptures to help with your studies,such as in the case of Cain and who his real father was...

1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Parable? Metaphor? The word "knew" is a Euphemism for "had sexual intercourse with" The bible clearly states in no uncertain terms that Cain was the Result of Adam having sex with Eve. This is not a mystery "choose your own adventure" comic book. This is God's word, and you mess with it to own hurt.

I told you that I don't know weather or not Eve had sex with Satan,however,upon further careful studying,I am convinced that she in deed had sex with Satan,

All that careful studying in the past few days? Hmmmmm...

the serpent,as he is called in Genesis 3:1...."trees" are used in a figurative sense to describe people, races and nations,such as in Ezekiel 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden,that were in the garden of God,envied him......

Sometimes they are. But if the trees in this parable represent people, then what do the PEOPLE represent? If it was a parable they would ALL be trees. Does Ezekiel 31 mean that the tree was Satan? Or does it mean that Satan was like that tree? After all, Ezekiel 31 IS a parable, and Genesis 3 is not likely one.

"fruit" represents offspring/descendants....

But not in this case, because this fruit grew from a tree that grew in the ground. How does one "eat one's descendants? Fruit can represent a lot of things. Works, Gifts, The word of God, etc. But sometimes it is a real fruit, AND it represents something.

both Adam and Eve were naked and not ashamed,innocent and perfect until they "touched" the tree God told them not to touch,

That is a misrepresentation of what the text says. They ATE the fruit. It is not clear that God ever said they should not touch it, Eve said that God said that, but that is not what God said to Adam. Touch is not being used in this passage in the euphemistic sense of "sexual contact. The context does not support that idea.

which is to say,they both had sex with people they were forbidden to,

Touch does not always mean to have sex with. You are reading your fairy tale version of events into the bible. Oh, and did Adam have sex with Satan orally or anally? You guys never answer that question.

and then they hid from God because they were ashamed of their nakedness;their eyes were opened and they knew both good and evil,as Genesis 3:22 says......

Ok.

this is where I understand the meaning of adultery,both sexual and spiritual and also the meaning of being able to discern and judge people by their fruit;wickedness and righteousness;good and evil.....

As you say, but I would find other passages more meaningful in regard to spiritual adultery. This was pure disobedience. Not knowing Good or evil, they would not have known adultery was a sin much less be able to judge anything by it's fruit....

when God created man,didn't he say he created man in "their" image? wouldn't that suggest there must have been others,although maybe not human, before Adam and Eve?

It may suggest a lot of things, it could be a royal "we" but I would not know and it would be foolish to think we know since God has not revealed it. I prefer not to intrude into things which God has not clearly revealed.

The bible is not about secret teachings. It is about the secrets of immortality. The secret of living a life according to the teachings of Christ. That is the kind of knowledge I'm most interested in

the "trees" in Eden were not literal trees because literal trees do not possess knowledge of good and evil

The bible says that the Tree of the knowledge of Good and evil had the power to open men's eyes. You are saying that it is impossible for such a tree to exist, because you know of no tree that posesses such powers. That is not logical.

and nor can they "envy" anything....

You are confusing the parable in Ezekiel 31 with Eden in which you believe at least some of the elements are literally real (such as the people).

the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden is not about them literally eating a piece of fruit from a literal tree,as most of us were taught since childhood,

You have a few reasons which you think support your idea, but you act as if these are compelling reasons. They are not compelling, it is perfectly resonable to believe that the story in Eden is just exactly as the Bible says.

I was not taught that in Childhood. I learned it from reading the bible and accpting what it was saying. You want to change the meaning of the bible by suggesting it's all allegorical, you need to have good justification for doing that and you do not have it.

apple and all.......

The apple is a red herring. It is the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It grew from a tree that grew in the ground.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

GOOD FOR FOOD.

furthermore, 1 John 3:12 Not as Cain,who was of that wicked one,and slew his brother.And wherefore slew he him?Because his own works were evil,and his brother's righteous....who was "that wicked one"? Adam? or Satan?.....

He was spiritually Satan's child. I've debated this subject endlessly, but now I have this study http://oraclesofgod.org/questions/audio/003_The_Seed_of_the_Serpent.mp3 The truth about Satan's children. They are a spiritual seed just as the children of God are a spiritual seed. This is not about flesh and blood but about spirit.

You can listen to that and respond to that. I've gone around and around on this one. You say the same things dozens of people have said and I have already thoroughly refuted. That link is pure dynamite, you had better not listen to what I say. I don't think you could handle it.

Cain was not wicked because of Satan being his dad. That is not even a Christian idea. Blame the parents. Is that it? He was of Satan because his works were evil. Works are what make one a child of the Devil, not genetics.

I think it's fair to say that nobody is perfect when it comes to interpreting the bible scriptures...

It is not a question of perfection. It is a question of corruption.

and it's wrong to judge and accuse others of perverting the scriptures on purpose without 100% proof they are doing so....

I never said he does it on purpose, you are ignorantly misrepresenting me again. He HIDES what he teaches on purpose. But he does not teach anything he thought was not true.

what reason would Arnold Murray have had to want to purposely deceive anyone? can you honestly answer that?

This is copied directly from my Shepherd's Chapel page http://oraclesofgod.org/shepherds_chapel.htm.

Do You think Pastor Arnold Murray is Intentionally Misleading People?
This has come up a few times (not just in email) People have the impression that I think Dr. Murray is knowingly misleading people about the things he believes are true. One Shepherd's Chapel student, in a phone conversation, told me, "That is what it seems like."

No. I do not believe that Pastor Arnold Murray intentionally misleads people when it comes to what he intends to teach them. Arnold Murray believes the doctrines that he teaches are the truth. I do not doubt that one iota. On the other hand, when it comes to being subtle about "Who the Kenites are." I do believe that he intends to conceal what his actual beliefs are on the subject. In that sense he does intentionally mislead people. All the Proof you need is on this page http://oraclesofgod.org/1980/jews.htm in Murray's own words.

The Shepherd's Chapel is a cult of personality, so any attack on Pastor Murray's doctrine is seen as an attack on him personally.

Since Dr. Murray is personally responsible for his teaching, it is not surprising that my assessment of his teaching as being "false" is offensive to his students. I don't "judge him," as people are constantly saying, repentance is still an option. I'm not condemning the man. But his teachings are condemned already and Pastor Arnold Murray is called to repentance for what he is doing. It is not the sort of thing one may be excused for doing ignorantly. Ignorant or not we are all held accountable for what we do. An offense in ignorance may seem a lesser offence, but it is an offence nonetheless.

Get it? Arnold Murray does not want to decieve people when it comes to the things he teaches , he believes the false doctrines, but when it comes to things identifying the Jews as the Kenites, he does intentionally decieve people about the true nature of his teachings, and that is manifest in that I get messages from Chapel students swearing that Murray does not teach that the Jews are the Kenites, but he DID teach that, I've got him red handed. He is secretive and tries to hide his beliefs about the trinity and the Jews and other things he thinks would cause "sensitive ears" to turn away from him over.

just because he may have been a prudent teacher,it didn't make him a bad one....

Prudent? No, I preach the truth boldly. He talked about preaching it boldly, but he was shy about stuff he knew would be unpopular. He knew people had to be slowly introduced to his fairy tales.

why did you say to me,"What makes you think you are fit to judge who you ought to listen to?" ???

I'm responding to YOUR question. You asked me what makes me think one thing and I asked what makes you think another,  Why did you ask me what makes me think I know the truth? Answer me and I'll answer you. Ask me an arrogant question, I will mirror it back at you.

AGAIN,you are ARROGANT....

You have it backwards. You are projecting your faults onto me. YOU are the arrogant one. You study Murray for a few months and try to tell one that has studied every single cassette and book that Murray sold, what Murray is like? What do you want me to do? Bow before your ignoance which I know to be untrue? Why should I be humble before an arrogant person such as you? I'm the one who has studied with Murray for years enough to realize what Murray is, you are just some poor arrogant student of his throwin a fit at me for having an opinion you don't like and for turning people away from an abusive ministry.

I am perfectly capable and "fit" to judge who I chose to listen to!

No, you are not. This is manifest in that you have fallen in with Shepherd's Chapel.

I do quite well on my OWN by praying to the Lord to help guide me and also by listening to pastor Murray....

I do not doubt that the Lord may be guiding you, he guided you to me, and when you learn your lesson, the Lord will lead you away from the false teachings of Arnold Murray and the Shepherd's Chapel.

no matter WHO I listen to,I always take time for myself to study the bible on my own....

If you continue to follow the breadcrumb trail that Arnold Murray suggests you follow you will continue to replicate his errors.

It's good that you seek the Lord and want to help others,but condemning others who also seek the Lord and want to help others as you do,is just plain wrong.....

I don't condemn Arnold Murray, if his teachings are false, he condemns himself. I have nothing to do with it. I have to follow my conscience.

you take offense to criticism,

Nonsense. That is ridiculous. But I do not just roll over for every false assertion that comes my way. You have to have a point for me to be able to take it.

but have no problem in criticizing others..... why is that?

I think you are projecting again. You are the one who can't stand me being critical of Murray, but have no problem with him ripping into all kinds of other people who name the name of Christ. And you have no problem misrepresenting me.

I don't feel that pastor Murray is leading anyone astray...

So now it is ok to judge people? I just say that because judgment goes both ways. Maybe you should make a webpage telling people what you think.

I feel that you understand the scriptures differently than he does and I think it would probably be better if you could just explain what the meaning of the verses are to you,in an adult manner,rather than accusing pastor Murray of being an all out liar and trying to manipulate people,which is a pretty bold assumption......

Look, I have hundreds of hours of bible studies where I do EXACTLY that. as I said. This is a very very small part of my ministry.

What gives you the right to judge what I do without having heard what I teach? Just because Murray has decieved you, that gives you the right to judge my teachings without having heard them?

I know you didn't say I should trust you,but you do insist that I should listen to your mp3 links.......

I don't insist you do anything, but I get tired of having the same conversation hundreds of times, the MP3's were recorded to deal with these issues. I get tired of giving each of you special treatment, you are all the same.

If you really want to refute me you would listen to me the way I listened to Murray. Then you would have something to say about what I teach. I have something to say about Murray because I HEARD HIM OUT.

how do you know there was no sex ever in Eden?

I don't need to know there was no sex ever, All I need to know is who was father of whom. Adam knew Eve and the direct result of that was Cain. If they were having sex in Eden it does not matter because Adam and Eve did not receive commands about having sex. "And Adam knew his wife and she conceived and bare Cain" (Genesis 4:1) That means they had sex and the result was Cain, that's a fact. I suggest my teaching on The Seed of the Serpent.

the word,"sex" is not in the bible.....

That is a red herring. The bible has expressions that indicate sex. Like this "And Adam knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bare Cain."   That is how the bible indicates people having sex together and making babies.

a tree growing from the ground bearing edible fruit can imply a person or beast and their offspring,since all living creatures were formed from the ground/dust........

Maybe, but a possibility is not the same as a certainty.

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat...... can a tree be desired to make a person wise? pleasant to the eyes?

YES!

The bible tells me so. I believe in the bible, I don't know exactly what you believe in, but I believe in the things the bible teaches, and I cannot in good conscience read all that subtext into Genesis, no way. I cannot do that. That is irresponsible and arrogant. It's like I would be saying I knew better than Moses.

no... but a human,or the form of a human can.Eve was attracted to the "tree"

You are reading sexual attraction into that.

she was told not to "touch",the tree was pleasant to the eyes,she saw the tree was good,Eve was beguiled/seduced by Satan......

She said that. That is not what God said though. She may have read that into God's words, the same way you are reading into Genesis. It's human nature.

Knowledge requires wisdom

More than that, God must reveal it to us.

and the bible can be a bit complicated to understand,

Not really. It is so simple a child could understand. I actually still believe that. The most important truths are not hard to understand. Arnold put a premium on intellect. I do not.

so it's not fair to assume you are wiser than others..... whatever is written in the bible can be debated when trying to understand what it says.

I can debate any subject in the world but not every argument is valid, and not every debate is worth the trouble.

Sincerely,

Paul Stringini

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