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"You Are the Fraud!" One of My Inaccuracies is Pointed out by a Sharp Chapel Student
----- Original Message -----From: Name And Address WithheldSent: Friday, September 03, 2010 6:20 AMSubject: YOU are the FRAUD!
I've listened carefully to Pastor Arnold Murray for several years and it sickens me greatly to read your lies, twisted quotes and fraudulent comments about this sincere man of God. He constantly quotes scripture but reminds his audience to do their own research to confirm the truth. You have stated several things he's said that are out and out lies! For one, Pastor Murray has NEVER saiwed that a person that premeditates what to say when they stand with the Lord is the unpardonable sin. but rather that we are not to worry about/premeditate what to say but to allow God to speak through us. Then, if we were to REFUSE God to speak through us, THAT is the unpardonable sin. Get it right, Jack
----- Original Message -----From: Name And Address WithheldSent: Friday, September 03, 2010 6:29 AM
You come off as an arrogant know it all that is jealous of Pastor Murray's success in teaching so many the Bible. Pastor is VERY careful to give God all the glory. You seem to seek glory unto yourself. And I agree that your web site looks like HELL and you sound like HELL.
My First Response:edits in maroon and in ( ), as in: (this is an example of an edit)
----- Original Message -----To: Name And Address WithheldSent: Friday, September 03, 2010 10:11 AMSubject: Re: YOU are the FRAUD!D______, thanks for writing, and for the help."I've listened carefully to Pastor Arnold Murray for several years and it sickens me greatly to read your lies, twisted quotes and fraudulent comments about this sincere man of God."I stopped listening to him years ago, so perhaps I may have misstated some subtle nuance of his teachings, but as far as I'm concerned you are talking about a distinction without a difference. So you can hardly call this one a "lie," I will go and correct it and even note there that a student of the Chapel has corrected me on this point and is actively helping my website, thanks! (don't worry, I have always been faithful to protect peoples' anonymity) I think I know where it is, but maybe I repeated it somewhere else, where did you see this mistake? I do want to accurately portray Dr. Murray's teachings. I believe his teachings are wrong, but I stopped studying with him over a decade before I began writing about his false teachings, so the rust shows.I do not question his sincerity. But sincerity is no excuse for what he does."He constantly quotes scripture but reminds his audience to do their own research to confirm the truth."That is what I did, imagine how surprised I was to find that the rest of his students did not do the same thing! Have you done your own research? Have you been thorough? Did you just do "research to confirm" or did you really, critically examine Dr. Murray's far-out interpretations in light of scripture?"You have stated several things he's said that are out and out lies!"Well, I think I usually say that "he teaches", that is not the same as a quote, I do want to be accurate, you are the first who has come forward to correct me in this way. I appreciate it because you are helping me become more right."For one, Pastor Murray has NEVER saiwed that a person that premeditates what to say when they stand with the Lord is the unpardonable sin.but rather that we are not to worry about/premeditate what to say but to allow God to speak through us. Then, if we were to REFUSE God to speak through us, THAT is the unpardonable sin." Get it right, JackYeah, you are right, that is exactly the way he teaches it. But really, most people are going to see that as a pretty meaningless distinction when the fact is considered that either way you look at it, it is TOTALLY wrong. I still stand by everything I said against his misteaching of the "unpardonable sin" but now, since you have written, I can correct that error and my work will be more effective. Thanks!I think the mere fact of this being such a deceitful mishandling of the word always threw me. I never really was able to totally swallow this one, I tried, I did, but it was too hard to swallow.Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.The reason is given. Dr. Murray is wrong, even if you are right about what he teaches, what he teaches is still wrong and you have helped me do my work more accurately."Get it right, Jack"Thanks to you, I will.You come off as an arrogant know it all that is jealous of Pastor Murray's success in teaching so many the Bible.I wish he was teaching the bible, but he is teaching himself making disciples after his own image, and not after Christ, and he is the synagogue of SatanPastor is VERY careful to give God all the glory.God gets no glory from Dr. Murray, but rather because of Dr. Murray, the way of truth is evil spoken of. Dr. Murray himself speaks evil of those who seek to be perfect. He is a minister of Darkness and he is swallowing souls...You seem to seek glory unto yourself.My enemies will always be disposed to see me as such, so why should I be troubled at your opinion?And I agree that your web site looks like HELL and you sound like HELL.Yeah, yeah, sticks and stones, child, really, you can't hurt me like that.Sincerely,Paul Stringini
Emailer's First Two Replies:
----- Original Message -----From: Name And Address WithheldSent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 3:44 PMSubject: Re: YOU are the FRAUD!
Well, I was pretty sassy with my response as I was in a hurry and didn't even know if my message would be delivered. Although I am not a Bible scholar, I don't consider myself gullible. I knew from the beginning that there are some that are publicly against Pastor Murray, but that is also the case with anyone in the spotlight. I did, and still do, watch and listen closely to what he says and how he says it. He talks often of how he will be held accountable for what he teaches, so if you're right, he has no problem with going to Hell. Instead, he glows with confidence that his work for the Lord will be deemed a job well done. although he never seems boastful, but rather humble in his work. He also talks constantly about working for and giving God all the glory. In fact, he says it so often that there's no chance of anyone thinking that his ministry is about himself. He not only reads straight from the KJV, but he stops and explains scripture using various sources to back it up. He's completely sincere in everything that he says and shows humility at every turn. If he's so wrong, tell me what he has to gain from leading people astray, other than a one way ticket to Hell. We already know who wins, so why would he be cheering for the loser? A huge part of his ministry is focused on warning people of the anti-Christ, warning that many will be deceived. If you haven't listened to him in a long time, maybe you should do so. For the sake of fairness, I think that's the least you can do before calling him a fake. And then ask yourself why he would be so hellbent on deceiving people. What does he have to gain but nothingness in the eternity?
----- Original Message -----From: Name And Address WithheldSent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 5:56 PMSubject: Re: YOU are the FRAUD!
Is this a discussion over the unpardonable sin? If so, this is how I understand it...that we can stray from God and still be saved...up to a point...that point being when the Anti-christ arrives in all his glory and convinces many Christians that he is Jesus Christ...and then Christ returns for the "show down" ...and each person will have to choose. It's at this crucial time that becomes a matter of Hell or eternal life with the Lord. If a person refuses to stand with the Lord and allow Him to speak through them, this person has committed the unpardonable sin. There's no going back at this point. Done. Many have nervously asked Pastor Murray what they're suppose to say and Pastor explains that we're not to premeditate what to say, but rather allow Christ to speak for/through us. The choice will be ours, but because so many don't study the Bible enough to know that the Anti-christ returns first at the 6th trump and Jesus Christ returns later at the 7th trump, many good Christians will be fooled and stand with the wrong one. After they realize the horrible mistake they've made, there will be much crying and gnashing of teeth. God will be angered and sad that he's left the truth for us in the Bible, but many don't bother to read it. The rapture doctrine is another thing many Christians have been taught that is not biblical, and is dangerous at that point of time. What say you?
My Second Response: edits in maroon and in ( ), as in: (this is an example of an edit)
----- Original Message -----To: Name And Address WithheldSent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 1:54 PMSubject: Re: YOU are the FRAUD!Hi again,It works better if I only have one message to respond to at a time. Both you messages are answered here. Please slow down."He talks often of how he will be held accountable for what he teaches, so if you're right, he has no problem with going to Hell.People will say all sorts of things to inspire confidence in people. It is certainly effective on people who listen to Dr. Murray. But what is he actually teaching? My biggest gripe against Dr. Murray is that his way of "truth" is basically a set of questionable teachings that have very little to do with the gospel, and that the CENTRAL THEME of the GOSPEL is something he mocks and opposes.Here are a good set of examples, and as someone who listens carefully to Dr. Murray you ought to know that he has said that it is impossible to be perfect and that we are going to sin and that anyone who says otherwise is a hypocrite.Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.Acts 3:26 God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.2Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;The whole emphasis of Dr. Murray's ministry is on this "special knowledge" that he conveys regarding the Kenites, the world that was, angels, prophecy, etc. When the reality is that knowing about these things, even if they are true will contribute nothing to the salvation of your soul. Knowledge commends us not to God. God is not impressed with our knowledge. It is as if the bible is this giant ink blot test or something and if you see the same enigmatic shapes as Dr. Murray, then you are the elect.But the Apostle Peter (2Peter 1) taught that we become sure of our calling and election when we have certain works happening in us, Faith, Knowledge, (TRUE knowledge) Virtue, kindness, temperance, etc. Dr. Murray's teaching does not convey the power of the gospel to make men free from sin. Instead he entangles them in fables (his perversion of the garden and election) and doctrines and commandments of men (dietary laws, racial consciousness).I know Dr. Murray does not teach immorality, and that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that he denies the fullness of the gospel and by his teaching he causes people to stumble at it. It is impossible but that offenses should come, but woe to them by whom it comes."Instead, he glows with confidence that his work for the Lord will be deemed a job well done."That is judging after the outward appearance. The scribes and Pharisees also had a lot of confidence, and so did Paul prior to his conversion. And so do the false prophets. The outward things that you observe and judge are no measure of whether someone is right or not. Or of whether God is with them.Jeremiah 28:10 Then Hananiah the prophet took the yoke from off the prophet Jeremiah's neck, and brake it.
11 And Hananiah spake in the presence of all the people, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Even so will I break the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon from the neck of all nations within the space of two full years. And the prophet Jeremiah went his way.
The false prophet in this example is "glowing with confidence" and Jeremiah simply goes his way. The false prophet does not think he is defying God. The false prophet thinks he speaks for God, and that Jeremiah is just a FRAUD. So your method of judgment really leaves much to be desired.All those who will say to the Lord "Lord Lord, have we not done many wonderful works in thy name." believed what they were doing was right. And, really, so does everyone, everyone does what is right in their own eyes. When they crucified the Lord, they did not think they were putting to death God's Son, they thought they were eliminating a blasphemer.1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
If Dr. Murray knew he was deceiving people, then he would stop doing it. That is why God hides the true wisdom from him, so he won't stop. God does not want to stop Dr. Murray, and I'm not here to stop Dr. Murray, but to harden his heart and the heart of his disciples, lest they should repent. Dr. Murray hates the truth and he hates righteousness, that is why he preaches other things. And that is why he will die in his sins. And that is how it works with false prophets and teachers like Dr. Murray."although he never seems boastful, but rather humble in his work."That is another false way of judging. He seems? Like a wolf in sheep's clothing seems to be a sheep. He flatters his disciples for their "studying" and in having "done your homework" and of course that all involves closely following his teachings. His mouth speaks words of humility, but they are just words.I've herd him boast about his network, the people who follow his broadcast, and numerous other small things, but never in a "boastful tone" I don't fault him for it. I'm not into criticizing him for that kind of stuff. Everything you are saying is based on things that appear outwardly, things that "seem" to be. I can't judge men like that, I try to stay focused on doctrine.He also talks constantly about working for and giving God all the glory.He gives his God all the glory, but my God is not like his god, all I have to do is listen to him for a little while and I immediately know that he is not talking about the God I have found in the bible. The glory Dr. Murray brings is to a false God. God is not like Dr. Murray teaches. When he talks about "our father" he is talking about someone I do not believe even exists, except in the mind of Dr. Murray and in the mind of his followers.In fact, he says it so often that there's no chance of anyone thinking that his ministry is about himself.Well, I say It is about him, because the God he preaches is one that Dr. Murray has created in his own mind by deceitfully handling the word of God. He has created a God after his own image.For instance, he always makes reference to "common sense" and he uses "common sense" to interpret passages of the bible. The bible has a word for "common sense" it is called "the wisdom of man." And that is on what Dr. Murray bases his interpretations of who God is. The wisdom of man... Because God's wisdom is in defiance of so-called "common sense." I've gone into detail on this elsewhere...He not only reads straight from the KJV, but he stops and explains scripture using various sources to back it up.Stop. Or you might say "interrupts" The number one source he uses his own weird ideas and misguided notions. He reads a verse and often says something that is an interpretation based on what he wants you to be thinking about, but so many times it has precious little to do with the scripture he is reading.He is a challenge for you, listen to Dr. Murray teach (something like 2Corinthians7), but listen carefully to the scriptures and compare what he is saying to what the context is of what is written. Or better yet just listen to a few of my bible studies like Matthew http://oraclesofgod.org/studies/40_Matthew/Matthew.html2Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.That is what Dr. Murray does, chapter by chapter, line by line, corrupting the word of God.He's completely sincere in everything that he saysThat does not mean anything, so is Jack Van Impe. And I don't follow that false prophet either.and shows humility at every turn.I don't see that. I think you are a little too gracious.If he's so wrong, tell me what he has to gain from leading people astray, other than a one way ticket to Hell.That is a red herring. You could say the same thing about Satan. He does it because he was ordained to this condemnation.We already know who wins, so why would he be cheering for the loser?You are saying this based on the presumption that I think Dr. Murray knows he is deceiving people. No, he is blind, but because he says he sees, his sins remain.John 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.A huge part of his ministry is focused on warning people of the anti-Christ, warning that many will be deceived.Satan does not have to deceive people if he already owns them.John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
1John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.If you haven't listened to him in a long time, maybe you should do so. For the sake of fairness, I think that's the least you can do before calling him a fake.I did just the other day on the internet and I couldn't get through one minute of his talking before he revealed himself to be as false as ever. He was on about "doing your homework" so you won't be deceived. But the greatest deception of all is SIN, sin is what will cause us to fail to inherit eternal life. If we are found in our sins we will perish, REGARDLESS of whatever "special knowledge" we possess.If we stand before God, he will not say, "Did you figure out who the Kenites are?" or "Did you understand that the antichrist comes first." No, it will be "Well done thou GOOD and FAITHFUL." or "Depart from me ye WORKERS OF INIQUITY". Dr. Murray has created this false idea that we have to totally reject Christ and worship another God in order to fail. All we have to do is be found in our sins, either by death or the Lord's return, and if that is the case, we will be "workers of iniquity" and we will not inherit the kingdom of God. Period.And then ask yourself why he would be so hellbent on deceiving people. What does he have to gain but nothingness in the eternity?He is hell-bent on deceiving people because he believes what he is teaching is the truth. He wants God to reward him for service, just like the other false prophets. But the "truth" that Dr. Murray loves, is really a lie that God hates. Like the scribes and Pharisees.SECOND MESSAGEIs this a discussion over the unpardonable sin?That is what you wrote me about. There is no need for debate, you are wrong. Badly wrong, just open your bible, I'll show you where.If so, this is how I understand it...that we can stray from God and still be saved...up to a point...This is really unrelated: but in regards to this idea of when it is absolutely "too late": It is Death or the Lord's return. After you die, there is the resurrection and judgment. These events also happen to coincide with the return of Christ so you're partly right. But really, I don't like to think in terms of how to be saved by the skin of my teeth! I want to be a little farther ahead in my race. Repenting at the last second is not exactly a sound strategy for inheriting eternal life, and really this is all based on a false idea of what the Christian God is even like. I've given you enough of my time, but if you really want answers from me you need to consult my bible studies, I can't undo years of conditioning in a few hours of writing. The chances of me convincing you are very slim but I trust the Lord will guide his own.that point being when the Anti-christ arrives in all his glory and convinces many Christians that he is Jesus Christ...This is a can of worms, This is a story based on several separate ideas, and just because your ideas all fit together into a nice story that you find reasonable you believe it. But you have totally ignored the fact that the passage about the unforgivable sin has nothing to do with the end times.If you want to get a really narrow idea of what it means here it is:Those who said that Christ Cast out Devils by the Devil had committed an unforgivable offense: blasphemy of the Holy spirit. They had called the Holy Ghost, the Devil. If you Look at every time this is mentioned, the pattern is CLEAR.Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.BECAUSE, We all know what the word "because" means. Why do you not believe what it signifies? This is GOD's WORD.Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
Matthew and Mark are DEFINITELY Explaining what Jesus was talking about but the last reference in Luke is the One Dr. Murray likes, in fact, when he teaches the other passages he always takes you over to Luke so that you won't get confused by all the simplicity of Matthew and Mark. But what he does is by the power of SUGGESTION maintain that the following verses (Luke 12:11 and 12) are explanatory of what the sin that can never be forgiven really is. But that is very deceitful, there is nothing in the text to suggest that. Dr. Murray just dislikes the TRUTH about what Jesus said and decides that his OPINION is better, and, of course, God thinks like he does!Psalm 50:21 These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.This is the context of Luke 12:10, in Luke there is no explanation given of what Jesus was talking about but in Matthew and Mark it is very clear because they use word like "BECAUSE"Luke 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.and then Christ returns for the "show down" ...and each person will have to choose. It's at this crucial time that becomes a matter of Hell or eternal life with the Lord. If a person refuses to stand with the Lord and allow Him to speak through them, this person has committed the unpardonable sin. There's no going back at this point. Done.You seem to forget that this "unpardonable sin" is called "Blasphemy" but what you describe is not blasphemy, it is rejection. And that is not the same thing, You have built up this case around Arnold Murray's teachings but you have not even done the most elementary examination of ALL the pertinent scriptures. You are listening closely to Dr. Murray, but you do not listen closely to Gods word.There is so much more of this that is wrong and if you showed even a ray of hope, I might be persuaded to spend more time on you.Many have nervously asked Pastor Murray what they're suppose to say and Pastor explains that we're not to premeditate what to say, but rather allow Christ to speak for/through us.The choice will be ours, but because so many don't study the Bible enough to know that the Anti-christ returns first at the 6th trump and Jesus Christ returns later at the 7th trump, many good Christians will be fooled and stand with the wrong one.The first trumpet has not even sounded, but Dr. Murray says we are in the fifth, he is a false prophet..But this is what people fail to really grasp, standing in the tribulation is not about possessing this knowledge, it is about having the faith to hang on to what you know is true, and that includes a lot more than merely "it is wrong to worship the Devil. All Satan has to do to seduce us is get us to sin, and then we are his children. All claims of knowledge to the contrary will not be respected. If we do unrighteous acts we will be the children of the devil. Dr. Murray does not prepare people for that. He gives them a false sense of security, and really, a lot of people have a sense of "I don't know what to do" because Dr. Murray does not really prepare people to face the challenges of the end times as Christians. Dr. Murray makes you like Dr. Murray, not like Christ, but if you are not like Christ you will not stand in the evil day. You don't have to worship the Devil. It could be FOOD. Satan tempted Jesus with food, and Esau fell because of the Lust of the flesh. If people can't turn away food now, how will they do it in the Tribulation?Jeremiah 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?People lie to themselves and say, "I'll straighten up when the tribulation comes, my faith will really get a boost from that.'' But that is not what the Tribulation is, the tribulation will shake that faith of man to its foundations and whatever is not built on the true rock of Christ and the word of righteousness will be destroyed.After they realize the horrible mistake they've made, there will be much crying and gnashing of teeth.I know this story, I was a student of his, Dr. Murray, in fact, was the only man I ever accepted as my bible teacher.God will be angered and sad that he's left the truth for us in the Bible, but many don't bother to read it.Plenty read it, the fact is that the truth is hidden from their eyes. Even the disciples of Pastor Arnold Murray and the Shepherd's Chapel should know this. Yes, they never would have come up with these doctrines if Dr. Murray had not been there to guide them. Dr. Murray's reading of the word is simply a nonstop perversion of the truth. When I stopped listening to him, I did not consult with other men, but alone, I consulted with the word only, and by the word alone God revealed himself to me. I follow that.The rapture doctrine is another thing many Christians have been taught that is not biblical, and is dangerous at that point of time. What say you?Some people have said that I pick on Dr. Arnold Murray and that I don't pick on anyone else, but that is not true, they assume a lot about me but they should "do their homework" because they mostly end up embarrassing themselves.Want to know what I think about the rapture? Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-0aPlnepPMSincerely,Paul Stringini
Emailer's Second Reply:
----- Original Message -----From: Name And Address WithheldSent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 5:09 PMSubject: Re:
(First I want to apologize for the lack of paragraphs since I'm communicating on my Droid cell phone) Paul...you've done an amazing amount of work responding to my messages and for that I thank you. I will admit that I understand very little about the Bible, as I believe is sadly true of most people. I grew up believing that it was just a bunch of thees and thous that I would never understand. Growing up in the Methodist church, services seemed very dull and even ritualistic...mainly a place to wear nice clothes. In my early 20's, I was introduced to salvation in the Baptist Church and was baptized. I will never forget the overwhelming feeling I had and tears streaming down my face as I accepted Christ as my savior. Until I ran across Pastor Murray's Bible study one early morning, I hadn't been involved in much in-depth study of the Bible. Even more than what Pastor Murray teaches, his program has brought me closer to God day by day. Just disciplining myself to get up by 5:00 made me feel that I was being faithful to my Lord. My closeness to Him and my deeply heartfelt prayers to the point of tears have grown immensely day by day since Pastor Murray prompted me to develop a closer personal relationship with my Savior. It's never been about Pastor Murray to me, but rather his reminder to me to love God more, witness to those I can and become a better and more faithful Christian, worthy of a wonderful eternity with my Lord. You quote scripture just as Pastor Murray does, but it's hard for me to understand in what context it was referring to in the Bible when it's quoted alone. Without going back to the early manuscripts and cross-referencing the meaning of different words then, how can one know what each scripture is really meaning? I understand that Pastor Murray has done just that and is definitely a Bible scholar. I also don't get caught up in him calling himself a Doctor, when he hasn't made it a secret that his many years of study have been independent of a traditional education. To me, being an independent scholar means more than just going through the conventional cookie cutter method of becoming a pastor. I would definitely also call you an independent Bible scholar and I commend you for all the work you've done and your seemingly sincere desire to know the truth. As you can tell, I'm still in the baby step phase of my deeper understanding and walk with my Lord. I feel sure, though, that He smiles when He sees me sincerely trying. The thing you and Pastor Murray have in common is that you both make me think and strive to develop an ever growing relationship with God. I will say, though, that you confuse me when you seem to separate the Holy Ghost (Spirit) from God himself in the scripture you quoted about the unpardonable sin. Aren't they two in the same, as is Jesus Christ? Meaning that we will all be in spiritual bodies when Christ returns to claim his faithful children, as He will also be in spirit form like it will be in Heaven. So, aren't you actually agreeing with Murray as to what the unpardonable sin is? Again, I really do appreciate the time and effort you've spent with me on these subjects. I can see that your work is far reaching with your music and videos. My cell phone is having difficulty with streaming videos, but I did see enough to say that you're very talented and intelligent. I'll plan to view it again on my computer. I wish you well always! Because of Him...Deana
My Third Response: edits in maroon and in ( ), as in: (this is an example of an edit)
----- Original Message -----To: Name and Address WithheldSent: Monday, September 13, 2010 12:37 PMSubject: Re: Re:
Hi again, It was never about Dr. Murray with me either. When I was 19 I was deeply interested in learning more about the bible, that is when I ran into Dr. Murray's bible study, I wrote all about that on my website. I certainly understand the impact that has on people. It is very empowering. You finally feel like you are starting to get it. You feel like you are really getting to know God and the Bible. I was part of a Christian group at the community college and the other kids looked up to me like, "Where did he learn all this?"The Pharisees got started pretty much the same way. They went around teaching people the Torah because there was a lot of ignorance. They gain a lot of prestige from that.The problem is that the God Dr. Murray describes is not an accurate representation of the God of the bible, and I certainly trust that if our ears are open to God, we will ultimately come to that realization. As we listen to these doctrines we may perceive ourselves as drawing near to God, but we are mostly drawing near to Dr. Murray's ideas, and that ultimately leads us away from God. That is what this is about for me, the ideas that Dr. Murray teaches, some of his core ideas are contrary to the teaching of Jesus and of His Apostles.His ideas certainly have their appeal. One that really gets stuck in peoples heads is that God is fair to everybody and that everyone who doesn't have a "chance" in this age gets their "chance" in the millennium". It becomes a core belief. It makes everything work out so nicely, it seems so fair. But it is a lie.For one: "The rest of the dead, lived not again till the thousand years were finished, this is the first resurrection" (Rev 20)The explanations that people use to justify Dr. Murray's teaching, in the face of this verse are nothing more than misguided attempts to corrupt the word of God with man's wisdom. People need to really think about the ways they interpret the bible to mean the opposite of what it says, because you know that Dr. Murray's teaching is that the all the dead "live again" in the millennium (but not spiritually) And What is wrong with that? Lived not AGAIN. They were alive and walking around, they were alive in the NORMAL CONVENTIONAL sense of the word, but they won't be like that again until the thousand years are finished.Also, God is not fair to everyone, if God wanted to be fair he would destroy us all. God is more than fair, he is gracious, but those who do not receive the fullness of his grace despise him because he favors others over themselves. Jesus illustrated this point in Matthew 20:1-16 This parable is about fairness, and it is clear, God is more than fair. He is good, but those whom he does not favor, resent him.People invest themselves in these ideas and when I start talking like this they get mad, like this typical person who emailed me:----- Original Message -----From: gbSent: Monday, September 06, 2010 4:41 AMSubject: You
You are a pthetic coward not to mention a liar. You are a dumbass to boot. You might as well throw the bible away because you have no idea what it teaches. Of course whiny punks like you that have nothing but jealousy for those that can teach the bible and must try to put them down to cover for your own failure. Well wimp you have done nothing but show everybody how pathetic and stupid you are. But hey thanks for the laughs. Now go run to mommy and get her to wipe your runny nose and and dry your tears.Is that the "mouth and wisdom" Christ promised that our adversaries would not be able to resist? Is that what it means to be a Christian? That is what I call, loving your enemies, Shepherd's Chapel style.When the revelation that the millennial "chance" was a lie came to me, my wife and I had the argument of our lives. But the truth prevailed. There is a way that seems right, and those are the ways Dr. Murray teaches, he judges things based on what seems right to him, he has never submitted himself to God that he might truly know and understand. He is the instructor of the word, and the word has not instructed him. I know because I took the other route.I do not even hope to undo the work of his doctrines by a letter or two, but I would counsel you to listen a little to my bible studies (and I recommend Matthew). If is about the word and not the men then let the spirit speak and judge my teachings."Without going back to the early manuscripts and cross-referencing the meaning of different words then, how can one know what each scripture is really meaning?"I've done a bit of that too, and really this is one of those areas where Dr. Murray engages in a bit of smoke screening. By and large, the bible can be understood without recourse to the original languages. There are a number of minor areas in which am understanding of the original languages is useful. The way Dr. Murray goes around touting his scholarship is shameless, and silly. If you are a scholar just BE ONE, It is just like the whole Dr. thing. Do you know why I call Doctor Murray DOCTOR? And I never question it? Because that is what he has called himself, that is what is printed on all my old cassettes, before he changed them all to "Pastor." It is the height of irony for a man who declares his credentials to be based on his abilities to add a "Doctor" to his name, whether he deserves it or not, whether he earned it or not, it's shameless. If your credentials are your abilities, then shut up and let your abilities do the talking. If you have to tell people then it musty not be that obvious.And I do not agree that he is definitely a Bible scholar, he does not really reveal very much of this "scholarship" beyond the mispronunciation of "Katabole" and abuse of words like "Ioudas." One of the few times he really tries to show some "Scholarship" is when he breaks back the word "tree" in Genesis 3, but he reveals himself to be misunderstand the use of roots and derivative words. The Hebrew words "Tree" and "spine" both come from the root which means "to be firm," but this connection does not make the tree of the knowledge of good and evil a being having a spine!.That does not mean that trees cannot represent people, but that is not the work of a linguist. But right there in plain English is says that the tree was "planted" and that is "grew" and that if fruit was edible. Dr. Murray uses appeals to scholarship to corrupt the plain meaning of scripture, basically training you to mistrust what you are reading in the bible and rely on his scholarship to help you reinterpret things.You get the feeling of increased understanding, but the reality is that he is a bringer of darkness. Just because we feel enlightened does not mean that the true light has shined. We end up more confused than ever, but now it is worse because we THINK we see. We all see through a glass darkly, so how do we know that the fuzzy image we see is really God?Also, I thought my quotes were pretty well clear and contextual. You don't need to be a scholar of Greek to understand those passages."I feel sure, though, that He smiles when He sees me sincerely trying. "He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. I certainly believe that.I will say, though, that you confuse me when you seem to separate the Holy Ghost (Spirit) from God himself in the scripture you quoted about the unpardonable sin.Is it not rather that you are reading into the scripture a lack of distinction between the Father and the holy Spirit. I mean you are assuming something about them and all I did was quote the scripture. But you feel like I'm missing something, even though I said almost nothing. I was not trying to create a distinction there, but of course, if you read it plainly, it is very obvious that one exists.Aren't they two in the same, as is Jesus Christ?I don't know precisely what you mean by "two in the same" That seems to be a contradiction in terms, maybe you could explain it to me better... but I think (assume) you mean "One and the same?" Because that is essentially what Dr.Murray teaches, that the Father the Son and the Spirit are all one and the same and that the distinctions between them are more or less "official" distinctions, distinctions of office, not real distinctions like one would assume terms like "father" and "son" would indicate.. This is not a biblical understanding of the nature of God. For one, you basically have to blow off much of what you can learn from the bible about the Father and the Son and just substitute Dr. Murray's doctrine, because the bible gives us lots of examples of distinctions which if not more than "official" are very confusing. I mean that if what Dr. Murray teaches is true, them why do the scriptures (which he claims are so simple that a child could understand...and I agree) speak in such a plain-faced contrary way?Meaning that we will all be in spiritual bodies when Christ returns to claim his faithful children, as He will also be in spirit form like it will be in Heaven.I agree we will all be transformed, and the dead shall be raised into "Spiritual Bodies" You are going to have to explain your thinking here. I'm having trouble seeing how this connects to the simple text of Matthew and Mark which simply tell us that they would never be forgiven who had blasphemed the holy spirit by saying that Christ cast out devils by the prince of devils. That IS what Matthew and Mark say. That is CLEARLY what they are saying. I don't know what kind of technicality you are trying to invoke here, but that is what you are doing and it is the WRONG WAY to learn from the bible.So, aren't you actually agreeing with Murray as to what the unpardonable sin is?No. What he is saying is unpardonable, has nothing to do with the blasphemy of the holy Spirit. If such a thing were to occur as he describes, it might not be a sin that would be forgiven, but it is not the Blasphemy of the holy spirit. Jesus SAID that those who BLASPHEME the holy spirit would never be forgiven. There are many PEOPLE who will not be forgiven, but the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only SIN that is not forgiven.I wrote an article on the distinctions and lack of distinctions between the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.. This is an excerpt:...the Spirit is spoken of as distinct from the Father and the Son, and the Spirit is spoken of as indistinct from the Father and the Son.The Spirit as distinct from the Father and the Son:Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.The voice came from heaven, not from his shoulder, if the Father is indistinct from the Spirit then this passage is highly misleading.John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.The father sends the Holy Ghost in the name of Christ. If the Father is indistinct from the Holy Ghost, then should we read this passage: "But the Comforter, which is the Father, whom the Father shall send in my name...?" That would be kind of like saying, "For God so loved the world that he sent himself." Instead of saying, "his only begotten Son" (John 3:16)John 15: 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:The Father does not send himself, he sends his Spirit (yet God is a Spirit), he sends his Son (here Jesus speaks of sending the Spirit himself, this can be viewed as another example of the indistinctness between Father and Son), these both come forth from the Father.The Spirit as distinct from the Father, yet indistinct from the Son:Jesus came in the name of the Father, he never came in his own name, but the Holy Spirit does come in the name of Jesus Christ, and is in fact, at times, spoken of as indistinct from Jesus Christ (that is why people speak of having Jesus Christ "inside them").Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.God did not "send himself into your hearts," he sends the Spirit of His son, yet previously Jesus had spoken of the Spirit as distinct from himself. The Spirit of God within us is even said here to make our nature like that of son's, compelling us to cry to God, as a son would, "Abba," which is an Aramaic word which means, "Father."The Spirit as distinct from the Son, yet indistinct from the Father:John 4:23 (The Son speaking) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.So we see here that the son can be shown as distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit and The Holy Spirit and the father can be presented as indistinguishable.
The Spirit as indistinct from the Father or the Son:John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.Here it is said that the presence of the Spirit in the believer is tantamount to the presence of the Father and the Son together in the believer, so that no real distinction between the two of them and the Spirit is seen. The spirit dwells in the believer and that is treated here as the same as having both the Father and the Son dwelling in the believer.The Spirit as indistinct from the Son:Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.Genesis 1:2 ...And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.In the new testament it is made clear that Jesus is the creator of all things, but in Genesis it is clear that the Spirit of God, is what is said to be acting on creation. This again, blurs the distinction between the Son of God and the Spirit of God.The Father, the Son, and The Spirit as all distinct from One Another:Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
To intercede is to act as a "go-between" A go-between cannot be a no-between, i,e.an intercessor must act between two parties, neither of which are him. If the Father and the Spirit were one-and-the same then the Spirit would be acting as an intercessor to himself. The Spirit is distinct from the Father in that he acts as intercessor on behalf of the saints, as is Christ:
Jeremiah 17:10 says "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins," In Revelation, Jesus lays claim to this power. Revelation 2:23 ...and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and heartsRomans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.It makes sense to interpret this "searcher" as Jesus, because it also says that the reason he knows the mind of the spirit is because he (Jesus) acts as intercessor for the saints according to the will of God.So, Romans 8:26 & 8:27, because he makes intercession for the saints, Christ knows the mind of the Spirit, and the Spirit makes intercession as well, but the son and the spirit are distinct here, because of the phrase "he (Jesus)...knoweth the mind of the Spirit)
If the searcher is the Father in verse 27, then the "he" in "he maketh intercession" must be the spirit.
However one looks at it, there is a definite distinction being drawn here. There are go-betweens going between God and man.
The Father, the Son, and the Spirit as totally indistinct from One Another:
I Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
We already established that both the Spirit and the Son make intercession to God on our behalf. Here Paul the Apostle states that there is only one mediator between God and man, making no distinction between the Son and the Spirit, add to that the fact that God is a spirit, which already blurs that distinction, and then consider this:
Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
God is one. A mediator, by definition, mediates between two parties. Also, a mediator, by definition, cannot be one of the two parties which he is acting as mediator between. A go-between cannot exist when there is no-between. But God is one. In Galatians 3:20 I believe Paul is acknowledging this paradox.
Emailer's Third Reply:
----- Original Message -----From:Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 1:52 PMSubject: Re: Re:
You quoting scripture without giving the full story of what that scripture was even referring to...the true context and meaning during that period of time...is actually useless to me. Anyone can pick out scripture randomly and believe that it means this or that, when it's often way off the mark and has nothing to do with the truth. Mainstream pastors will pick a verse and make an entire sermon from that one verse, never mind the fact that the true meaning and context gets completely lost. Pastor Murray refers to God being fair to everyone when he speaks of those that lived and died before Christ and didn't have a chance at salvation...or those living in remote areas that didn't/haven't heard the word...or very young children too young to understand...or the mentally ill that can't understand. God loves all of his children equally and will be fair in every way to allow them an equal chance at eternal life. I believe that Pastor Murray worships the one true God and have seen no trace of the ugly darkness you portray him as spreading. I also believe that no one resurrects from the ground, but that all dead go directly to Heaven to wait for judgement...the good AND the bad...and that even those that "didn't believe" before will have another chance...this also being because many of us didn't get to walk with Jesus, but had to believe by faith only. I also believe that God sent the "human" part of himself, in the form of his son, so that those that lived in that Bible time could walk and talk with him, hear the truth, and have salvation through him. I believe that there are many kinds of doctors and that credential is based on a certain number of years in study of that particular interest and I believe that Pastor's many years of studying the Bible gives him full right to be called a doctor, much more than someone that takes a few classes in natural herbal supplements is give the title of Doctor of Homeopath. Perhaps someone encouraged Pastor to use that title years ago, but he later swayed away from it. It matters not to me. Many call themselves musicians, but actually have very little talent in music...just an example and no reference to you. Pastor seems to strive to grow each day in knowledge, love, truth, humility...realizing that he is nothing without God. He talks a lot about simple truth...believing that God is not the author of confusion, but that Satan IS. God left the gift of his word, the Bible, as our guide of how to best live on this earth
----- Original Message -----From:Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 2:06 PMSubject: Re: Re:
That sent without proofing or completion. I've been very sick with an infection and high fever since Friday, so I'm not functioning well right now. Anyway, the Bible is God's gift to us...his guide for this life and our understanding of his awesome gifts of salvation and eternal life. Why wouldn't he want us to understand? I might look at this in a simple way in your estimation, but I have no desire to make it ugly and sorted at the hands of one man. I know who I am and I know whose I am. Take care and keep praying for truth.
I did not find any reply to this message. I did provide sufficient context. And if I did not, this person owes it to the truth to study the word for themselves and not blame others when they do not themselves know the context of a passage.
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