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Arnold Murray's Similarities to Herbert W. Armstrong - Email # 221 Conversation Continued and Expanded - Various Chapel Topics

Question/Comment: 

Emailer's Fifth Reply: (Continued from Email #221)

----- Original Message -----
From: Name Withheld
To: Paul Stringini
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: I think I am about to be thrown out of Season.org
Interesting.
We'll, I guess I am out of there.  I bet I have been labeled a mischievous Kenite too!

 It's very frustrating that there is no way or mechanism to discuss anything with Shepherd's Chapel. They are set up internally the same way the Herbert W. Armstrong World Wide Church of God was set up 1960's-70's. When that church fell apart, it caused lot's of pain for his die hard supporters. I had friends in 1970's who suffered emotionally when WWCG collapsed. Many people just drifted in disbelief for years.  It even broke up families. I hear some of them eventually set up splinter groups and continue to promote Armstrong's teachings even to this day.  The similarity with the Chapel is uncanny. Follow the leader or leave. No real hard questions allowed. Check us out, as long as you use our sources. I never belonged to WWCG, But I had friends who were. I did contact them a few times with questions, which never received a reply.
I'm curious, at the Chapel, how did Murray, his associates, and even the parishioners handle sexuality or sexual immorality?  Was it a group of chaste people? The reason I am asking is that every time Murray read from the Bible, and reached a point in scripture, which discussed fornication or adultery, he would change the subject from a moral teaching to something involving worshiping Satan. I listened to him everyday for almost 6 months. I saw new programs, and old programs that were produced in the 1990's. If sexual sin and fornication was mention in the scripture, he would always misdirect it to worshiping the false antichrist. Other than homosexuality, I never ever heard him discuss fornication, adultery, in the context of Christian purity or morality.

Name Withheld

My Sixth Response:

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stringini
To: Name Withheld
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: I think I am about to be thrown out of Season.org

I learned about Herbert W. Armstrong (aka THE end-times Elijah who restored all things) through the "Philadelphia Church of God" and Gerald Flurry.  Flurry was interesting to me because of the weird similarities between his program and the Shepherd's Chapel  (Gerald Flurry - Arnold Murray, (Their names Rhyme) Blue curtain at a desk, flag in the back,  and bible verses at the bottom, similar teachings about Anglo-Israelism, etc.). I got a bunch of their (Philadelphia Church of God) free books and learned about good old "H.W.A." and how much some people still love him. 
 
One of the things I find in every bad church is that the Gospel is always brushed off to the side, not officially, but they have this attitude that the gospel is "just the basics" and that the "real meat" is all this gobbledygook about prophecy and hidden doctrines which only the elect can see in the scriptures. I usually use the analogy of The Emperor's New Clothes, which were invisible to the foolish, the incompetent, and those where unfit for their offices.  It is a convenient way to cut off debate.  Why bother discussing things, when those who oppose you are obviously incompetent fools? 
 
You would be amazed at the conversation I have been having with another gentleman (cough) at the same time as I have been talking with you.  He's about your age and about as opposite as you as they come.  Not because he opposes my work, but because of the WAY he opposes it.  His main argument is that I'm stupid and that is basically where everything goes.  And  Murray actually teaches this attitude to people in his studies. I consider it the fruit of his ministry. If you don't agree with him, you must be "just a little bit stupid."  However, if you agree with him you are "sharp" and one of God's elect.  Flattery will get you somewhere with some people. 
 
I do think that some people who study with the Shepherd's Chapel are very reasonable.  But they usually end up leaving the chapel.   Every reasonable person I ever had a discussion with was able to express some doubt about Pastor Murray's teachings.  Whereas with others you are not allowed to express any doubts.  Consider what that nice lady said.
 
"I know pastor was human and misspoke on a few occasions, but when he did, I believe most of us caught it. However, because he documented everything he taught, I agree with everything I heard him say. He would always tell you when something was just his opinion versus Biblical fact. Because of his gift to teach, and extensive knowledge of the manuscripts, I believe him to be correct."
 
He does not admit to have errors, he "Misspoke,"  a few times. Well,  I do that on a daily basis. Misspeaking isn't a sin any more than tripping over a kid's toy is a sin.  I stumble over my words all the time.  That is like admitting that Murray used the toilet, "every now and then."  but "only when he absolutely had to."  It admits no error in the least.   Not that we should all have errors in our doctrine.  But its another example of what I see as false humility over at the Chapel. 
 
Murray was the kind who could never do something good without sounding a trumpet.  For example "I never beg"  He could just not beg and let that be the end of it, but no, he NEEDS us to know he never begs.  "I don't talk about other denominations"  that was an insidious one,  Murray could not just do that, he had to make sure we knew he was doing it.   "My credentials are my ability to teach"  Then why call yourself doctor?  I find that a lot of his supposed virtues are not only shams (he ask for money, talks about other denominations, loved the title doctor, etc) but the only reason we would ever think he possesses those supposed virtues is because he constantly drilled it into our heads that he had them. 
 
Why do people think that Arnold Murray (who can't even read a single Greek word without butchering it) is a scholar of the ancient languages?  Because he says so.  He never actually manifests anything like true scholarship of Hebrew or Greek.  Any hack can break out a strong's concordance.  But Murray can't even follow the pronunciation guide in the Strong's.  And it is not that I think we need to be great at pronouncing things, but when a guy loves to toot his own horn so much you start to apply a different standard to him.  If he is so great and wise, then he ought to be judged by the standards of the great and wise.
 
Sexual Immorality and Murray.  Well,  I remember his words "God does not really care about your little ol' sexual sins, he cares about whether you will worship Satan!" He prefers to spiritualize adultery, it's true.
 
Arnold Murray had a very twisted view of righteousness.  He blamed it all on "the flesh" and basically left it there because in his version of Christianity all that really matters is knowledge.  You have to know the secret doctrines, and "wake up" to the Kenites and all that.  Of course, you believe in Jesus and repent, but in his mind that was all milk, the real meat was that the Jews were the Kenites and you preexisted in the first earth age etc.  I remember being more fixated on Satan and his activity than worrying about sins that I was committing. 
 
He definitely would say things against drugs and alcohol abuse.   And he was definitely not tolerant of homosexuality.  But he thought it was ok to admire women, because it was natural.  He often went out of his way to describe the act of looking at a woman as being "to admire God's creation" and said it was just what was "natural."  And only considered "putting the make on her" to be lust. So I guess that makes porn ok so long as you just admire the ladies in the photograph and don't "put the make on her"  Whatever that means.
 
An attractive middle aged widow once wrote me that Murray threw himself at her in a hotel room and, after she did not respond to his advances, and the people at the Chapel treated her like dirt (she had been getting the royal treatment up until that point).  I did not publish that letter, because my argument against Murray is about his doctrine and not his personal life.  But it is telling and I believed her account, he was lonely and he took a chance  (this was after the death of his wife).
 
One aspect of Murray's teaching that fell by the wayside is that he used to teach that a deeper level of "adultery" was racial mixing.  I had a friend who went way back with the Chapel and he was down there and asked one of Murray's granddaughters to help him clarify his understanding of Adultery in terms of racial mixing, because he had been married to a Mexican woman and was confused because it seemed like the chapel had abandoned it's old position.  The chapel had him jailed for criminal trespassing when he tried to explain himself to the Murray's after being told to leave. 
 
Sincerely,
Paul Stringini
 

Emailer's Sixth Reply:

----- Original Message -----
From: Name Withheld
To: Paul Stringini
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: I think I am about to be thrown out of Season.org
It's really too bad.  Right now Shepherd's Chapel has one of the best mechanisms for delivering the Gospel that has ever existed. All that access to Dishnet and Dish Network, cable channels, radio and Internet.
If they would use the same process-reading through the Bible verse by verse but leave the "speculation" out.  If people ask questions concerning about some of the more difficult passages, then offer all the views, or say I don't know. They have the opportunity right now to turn it into a real ministry. Too bad some people can't set them "leadership" aside and explain what they are doing, and what they can do by making a few changes. The potential is enormous.
I turn him on the other day. It lasted about 15 minutes. I just can't stand being hit over the head with the Rapture Doctrine. It's a endless bashing.  I have never believed in the Pre-trip rapture, not ever.  However, I don't believe it's the big evil out there either. Where does he get the Rapture Doctrine will be antichrists message?   I can't find that in scripture.  Many people who believe in pre-trib, know the false Christ comes first. Their current belief in pre-trib  doesn't guarantee they will follow anti-christ if they are still around when he comes. 
Your link on your web page about Murray/Jews was interesting.  I can see why your trying to locate old tapes of old programs.
The last few weeks I have been listening to some of Steve Qualye's stuff on Youtube.  Mostly on Hagmann and Hagmann.  Some interesting stuff. Also a few things that might require a "tin foil hat", but that makes it interesting.

Name Withheld

 

My Seventh Response:

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stringini
To: Name Withheld
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: I think I am about to be thrown out of Season.org

I agree about the rapture.  I think the rapture doctrine is wrong and that belief in a pretribulation rapture can foster the wrong kind of attitude in a Christian.  However, that does not mean that they will automatically worship the beast, where is the sense in that?  I have faith in Christ that he will continue to enlighten all those who trust in him.  Those who love the truth will be made free from any lies. 
 
God delivered me from drug and alcohol abuse.  People like to hear that.  Heresy is just another form of sin which we need to rely on Christ to show us the way.  I think the most important thing is that he gives us a heart that is willing to wait and listen, but is also steadfast and zealous for the truth.  Those two things can be hard to have at the same time.
 
I have a collection of hundreds of Murray tapes from when I was a student.  I have all the old ones that were available back around 1993-5 except for a few which are misplaced.  I'm in the process of digitizing them.  Then I'll have to figure out what to do with them.  I really don't want to spent a lot of time analyzing them.  But for me it is like the Jews were to Paul.  Arnold Murray taught me the bible.  I spent a thousand or two on study materials.  I don't regret it because, at the time, I needed someone to take me through the bible, and there he was.  My wedding film was shot by David Murray right in front of Pastor Murray's desk. I do this because I know his teachings and I feel an obligation to his students.  

Emailer's Seventh Reply:

----- Original Message -----
From: Name Withheld
To: Paul Stringini
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: I think I am about to be thrown out of Season.org
For me, one area that may do some harm is Murray's teachings that Christians, the Elect, will not suffer , be persecuted, or killed in the Tribulation.  The other is that nothing will happen to the USA because we are Israel, and we have "in God we trust" on our money.

Name Withheld

My Eighth Response:

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stringini
To: Name Withheld
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: I think I am about to be thrown out of Season.org

I saw today that I also got banned from theseason.org...  without even saying a word.  I was just lurking.  I signed up just to read your post.  Makes me wish I had copied several things I had read there.  I guess that is what I get for using my real name as my username. I guess that is how much they fear me, I'm not even allowed to look.  While I was there I searched my name, because I know people told me they went there to talk about me,  I've been purged from their records.  In their minds, someone like me cannot exist.  That is why I frequently am accused of being a Kenite plant or something along those lines.  They don't even want me reading what they say.  It would be easy to get around it, but I'm not going to bother, I just wanted to read your post, I don't need to read their repetitions of Murray's garbage.
 
I saw that some people have done a lot of research on theseason.org and Reine (shamrocked). It was interesting.  I think her intellectual ruthlessness is almost Leninist in its exercise.  But I feel more pity than anything else.  To fear dissent so much must be an awful burden to bear, unless you have a seared conscience.  I always consider my greatest obligation to be to the truth, to seek it honestly without respect of persons. 
 
It is given us on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him but to suffer for his names sake.  If they do not wish to suffer at the hands of the Devil, they may be granted their wish.  "How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously."  But there is a price, "so much torment and sorrow give her."  I expect to suffer.  I'm not exactly jacked about it, but I want to perform whatever it takes to become like Christ
 

Emailer's Eighth Reply:

----- Original Message -----
From: Name Withheld
To: Paul Stringini
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: I think I am about to be thrown out of Season.org
Paul,

You can log in with another computer, with different Ip address with a new user name. Personally. I see no reason for me to do so. They have some good teaching, but I don't want to listen to that much bad teaching either. I don't need to deal with anyone who will not even make a attempt to answer a simple question.

My guess they are reading your web site. Watching the emails you post. Plus watching what you are saying elsewhere.
I don't understand their attitude.
Anyway,  it's like "burning books".  If the person has the truth and can defend it by answering a few questions, then why do you need to erase what others are writing?  What's their fear in answering questions about their doctrines and beliefs?
How strict were the Chapel people when it comes to their followers studying with other people anyway?
It's a strange ministry. A small tight Church with such a big outreach worldwide. However, there is no mechanism for people who wish to study or share with other people. No new churches or study groups are created. No branch fellowships. The only communication is via sending a question letter in, and hope that it gets read on the air. Plus, far to many times I have heard questions asked, and never directly answered, or answered with a mysterious  innuendo.
Like I said, what a waste of such good resources for Gospel out reach.

Name Withheld

An Additional Message:

 
----- Original Message -----
From: Emailer #221
To: Paul Stringini
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: I think I am about to be thrown out of Season.org
Paul,
The Season.org and it's posters spend so much time blaming the Kenites for the world's ills, for spreading deceit, and misinformation, yet not identifying who the Kenites actually are, could be by some, to be interpreted as a form of racism. Their actions are similar to Nazi Propaganda in the 1930's.
Name Withheld

My Ninth Response: 

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stringini
To: Name Withheld
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: I think I am about to be thrown out of Season.org

When someone comes to me with an argument I cannot refute, it usually causes me to reexamine myself.  I don't want to be wrong.  I don't understand people whose impulse is to silence all opposition.  I mean, when certain people behave rudely, I sometimes feel like I would just like to ignore them, but I never use that as an excues to ignore something I know is a good point against me.
 
 

Emailer's Tenth Reply:

----- Original Message -----
From: Name Withheld
To: Paul Stringini
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 3:06 PM
Subject: Gog Magog
Paul,
I was just thinking.....
Remember back to all the times when you read about Gog and Magog in Ezekiel. Remember reading how the Gog and Magog hoards come down from the north, riding on horses?  "Horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords"  Then asking yourself how can that ever happen?

 If or when a solar flare or coronal mass ejection hits Earth's magnetosphere, we will all be on horseback. 
No matter how much technology you have, a coronal mass ejection EMP will be the great equalizer.
A solar flare coronal mass ejection, will change everything. According to the latest reports, the Earth has had two near misses in the last three years.
We can easily wake up some day, and find ourselves back in the dark ages.

When Albert Einstein was asked about Nuclear War.

“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”


― Albert Einstein

Name Withheld

My Tenth Response:

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stringini
To: Name Withheld
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Gog Magog
I think, as things are, we would be short on horses for all but the most essential uses, and it would be easier to rebuild, that is, if we had the time to do it.  That is a big "if."  But if a mass ejection hit and there was no time to rebuild... then I think that may make sense. 
 
Revelation 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
The sun hit
 
Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
 
Massive power outages from and EMP?  Perhaps so.
 
The gathering to Armageddon follows quickly in the sixth vial.
 
Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
One thing about Gog and Magog:  Does that battle take place in the end times or at the end of the millenium?  Maybe technology will be discarded during the millenium and that explains the horses at Hamon-Gog.
 
Ezekiel 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
 
Revelation 20:9 .....and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 
Paul

Emailer's Eleventh Reply:

----- Original Message -----
From: Name Withheld
To: Paul Stringini
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: Gog Magog
or We could suffer a world wide corona event, and not even enter the Tribulation for 10, 20, 30 years or more.
Ezekiel 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

" dwell carelessly in the isles"  interesting verse.    dwell carelessly ?
Here we are "speculating again"......
I am shocked at listening to the people in our government talking war over Ukraine. Obama, McCain, the other NeoCons.  Then again, they have deep underground bunkers to hide in.  The rest of us will be unfortunate collateral damage.
Grab a strong hold on the belt around the waist of Jesus, and don't ever let go.....
Name Withheld

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