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"I Have a Friend Who Studies Under Murray and is "Working" on Me."
Question/Comment:
----- Original Message -----From: Name WithheldTo: Paul StringiniSent: Monday, September 02, 2013 12:38 AMSubject: On Murray
Paul:
Good web info on Murray. I have a friend who studies under Murray and is "working" on me.
It is actually kind of sad...all the false doctrine taught. Thank God I have a sound foundation. The false doctrine sounds almost believable on the surface.
I am a bible believing Christian and when saved, thoroughly dug into apologetics and the word. I wanted to be able to defend myself with bible doctrine.
Normally, I would give bible verses to show Murray's false doctrine to a buddy like this and walk away. However, he is recruiting and seeking me. He is pulling others from good bible teaching churches as well.
I am really holding back on going to battle on this one. You never know, I could get this friend back on track which could lead to others getting out of this false prophets tangled web.
I have checked out the awesome letusreason.org page on Murray, CARMs web info, Mikes Christian Corner and obviously your stuff. There is so much to cover with my friend....modalism, serpent seed, three earth ages, Caucus Mts./Christian identity/lost tribes garbage and the Kennanite (sp?) debacle. Don't forget his self proclaimed PHD and him pulling a gun. To top it off, Murray's followers appear to get really offensive as proven by your email exchanges.
Where would you start on getting my buddy back on track? It seems like I have to start with the 8 rules of bible interpretation and disproving Murray's message with apologetics/scripture. It seems like an overwhelming task. Ideas?? How do you get around Murray's picking and choosing of interpretations and blatant word smithing?
Name Withheld
----- Original Message -----From: Paul StringiniTo: Name WithheldSent: Monday, September 02, 2013 2:00 PMSubject: Re: On MurrayYour friend has been conditioned to accept bad practices when interpreting scripture... and not merely to accept, but rather to rely on those practices and to begin to think of them as not merely interpretive "practices" but rather an exhibition of one's election and eyes to see. Breaking through that conditioning is not easy, sometimes even when God gives us the grace to do it. For me it was, at first, a slow process of disillusionment. I kept running into verses whose simple meaning not make sense to me in light of Murray's teachings. And this had an erosive effect on my conscience. But it was not until God really intervened in my life that I completely abandoned those beliefs after pursuing them more or less for 13 years. I personally think the largest and most effectual collection of corrosive verses can be found in the serpent seed doctrine. Eve, the mother of all living. Adam Knew his wife eve and conceived and bare Cain (Adam is in Cain's Genealogy), etc. Beguiled "exapatao" does not imply sexual seduction, in any language. Touch should only imply sex when used euphemistically. The tree is clearly described as being an actual tree with actual fruit actually growing from the ground. "I know that ye are Abraham's seed" etc... These verses are quietly nagging him, I would make them raise their voices a bit.The problem for most folks is that you almost have to take up a second Major in false doctrine to effectively combat this kind of corrupt thinking. You bring up one point and they run to another. You bring up a verse, they bring up a verse, it's a classic showdown. Unless you know every supply station they are going to run to in order to renew their struggle, it can be a frustrating exercise. The serpent seed and Kenites are the foundation of Murray's teaching, they consider it "the key of David" and the things they believe about the serpent seed inform all their other beliefs, I have one page dedicated to just that discussion. I really need to update it because I have dozens of more pages of writing on it than are currently up, and I learn a little more each and every time I write on the subject. But that is what I recommend. Attack the Kenites and Serpent seed, it is not Murray's most vulnerable doctrine, but the ratio of importance to vulnerability is OPTIMAL. Once you crack them on the serpent seed, Murray's other teachings will fall under their own weight.I would not attempt to talk to him about Murray's Doctor fixation, the Chapel finances, Modalism, etc, these issues will tend to cause them to go "turtle" on you. Serpent seed is their bread and butter, they generally WANT to talk about that because it is the one thing Murray really makes sure they get a good round education in. They think they are very strong in that area so it is a very easy area to draw them into a conversation over. Like I said though, I would definitely do heavy preparation so that they don't surprise you with fake facts you are not prepared for. I say they are vulnerable, but it would be a mistake to think they were weak on that subject, far from it. They are strong in a weak doctrine and with extensive preparation they can be completely stymied and "possibly" stunned into reconsidering their position.On my Kenite page you can see what they tend to bring up when discussing this subject. http://oraclesofgod.org/emails/_kenites.htmI certainly advise reading at least some of what I have written in response to them, I have made many points you will not read elsewhere because of my perspective and the gifts God has given me.Sincerely,Paul Stringini
----- Original Message -----From: Name WithheldTo: Paul StringiniSent: Monday, September 02, 2013 3:01 PMSubject: Re: Re: On MurrayThanks for the response.
I may start with proper study methods that are universally accepted by biblical scholars.
All Murray's teaching is simple misinterpretation, picking and choosing the language that best fits his purpose.
----- Original Message -----From: Paul StringiniTo: Name WithheldSent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 1:18 PMSubject: Re: Re: On Murray
I think that getting into proper study methods is an ok way to go at it, this is situational, and you know your friend best; but don't ruin it by making an appeal to authority. Not only is that itself an error of logic, it will prejudice your friend against what you are going to say. Definitely leave any mention of the scholars out. I would focus on the reasons those study methods are proper for their own sake. God is a God of order and logic and I would make proper study methodology an issue of absolute right and wrong rather than one of scholarly consensus.In my opinion, if you start in talking about "proper study methods that are universally accepted by biblical scholars" your friend's ears are probably going to shut, that is because of the work of Murray. In spite of the fact that Murray fancies himself a scholar and also flatters his students by telling them that they are also "scholars," there is an ironic anti-scholarly flavor to his ministry. They place a high value on certain study tools, but Murray does not appear to fully comprehend how to properly use these tools (the Strong's concordance for example) and passes along to his students these very bad practices.Christ be with you,Paul Stringini
----- Original Message -----From: Name WithheldTo: Paul StringiniSent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 2:12 PMSubject: Re: On MurrayI see wisdom in that. You have more experience than I do with Murray, being a follower.Would you say, his students/followers are young in their walk or easily convinced?
----- Original Message -----From: Paul StringiniTo: Name WithheldSent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 1:48 PMSubject: Re: On MurrayIf they were easy to convince then it would not take so much work to convince them to abandon the teachings of Murray! : )When we went down to Arkansas in 1995, we met an elderly couple, very nice, sweet people. They told my wife and I that they had been elders of a protestant Church (I do not recall the denomination) and members for over 30 years before finding "the truth." I thought it was amazing then, I still do, I have not met other people like that. But if you think of youth in terms of depth rather than in terms of time, I would say you are definitely on the right track. I think the people who wind up following Murray are anxious for knowledge in the scriptures and generally feel dissatisfied with what is being offered by mainstream churches. In a time where the preaching is being simplified and made common, this is not surprising. These people are generally thirsty for more "in depth" teachings (as Murray puts it). Its very sad, this is where "youthful" zeal goes astray. They need a more intense level of instruction before they become frustrated and turn ot fables. They are like adolescents who are no longer riveted by the elementary level of Christian teaching offered by most churches on Sunday.They should be moving on, but for whatever reason, they are not finding it. Or if they do find it they are not satisfied because whatever they find lacks the juvenile excitement they crave. Murray fills the void by offering extensive, line by line, bible studies in parts of the bible that are generally ignored. The content of is teaching is R-rated, just what the juvenile mind craves. Not only that, but his teaching style and manner are entertaining and conspiratorial. When I found him, I was very happy, line by line instruction was just the sort of thing I wanted. I could not get formal training, so in my view, this was the next best thing. But what really floored me was that he was telling me that there were hidden truths in the bible which were being intentionally suppressed. Juveniles love to rebel against "the man."Colossians 2:18 ...intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,Murray preys on the desire of the immature to find out secrets. People feel that they are missing out on things in the bible and Murray step in and promises to reveal all. I bought hundreds of cassettes in hopes of finding those "deeper truths" he kept hinting at. But I soon realized that the "deeper truths" were the same things that he had been teaching me the whole time. It all revolves around racial identity and on Murray's philosophy and imaginary cosmic history. Murrays teachings are a deep corruption of Christianity, it is not just a few false doctrines that have to be dealt with. There is a philosophy, a form of wisdom, and it colors every aspect of their Christianity. Murray pours his opinions, personality, and personal philosophy into the teachings of Christ amending and adjusting them as needed.It is problematic when you invest yourself so deeply in lies. It's hard to go from thinking you know the secrets of the bible to believing you have been deceived and admitting you don't really know anything as you ought to know it. From start to finish, it was 13 years for me, even though I only studied with him intensively for the first 4 years and had begun to seriously doubt him after only 2 years. But I honestly do not regret him, no more than Paul would have regretted Gamaliel. I learned what was right by recovering myself from what was wrong.I had a former chapel friend call me about a year ago to inform me that he was no longer with the Chapel, he told me he had actually gone over to the devil. The break came when Murray had him jailed down in Arkansas. He ended up going back to Murray even after he told me all these unkind things that he had observed Murray doing to others and to himself (he told me he knows it was all his fault and he is going to stay away from Arkansas). But my point is that it is hard to let go of your beliefs without having something to replace them. You know the parable, when the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he returns and finds his old house swept and garnished, you have to replace the lies or they will come back...with friends.Sincerely,Paul Stringini
----- Original Message -----From: Name WithheldTo: Paul StringiniSent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 2:17 PMSubject: Re: On Murray
Good stuff.Does his ministry bare fruits or is it study only? I.E. ministries, church planting, evangelical out reaches. Ministry is to be fruitful.....doers not hearers .
----- Original Message -----From: Paul StringiniTo: Name WithheldSent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 4:58 PMSubject: Re: On Murray
Its all in-growth. The only purpose of his ministry is to spread his ministry. Sitting in front of the TV watching Arnold is Church. When people write ask him about fellowship he explains to them that they are having fellowship over the airwaves. If you wanted to start a "Shepherd's Chapel" group you would be totally on your own. The only way to meet other students is to either get the bumper sticker and hope for a random encounter or to go to the yearly Passover meeting and try to find someone from your area. They do not encourage people to get together.Teaching ministries can be fruitful in teaching alone, fruit is not just bringing more people to Christ or expanding earthly dominion, there is alot more to "doing" than expanding already bloated ministries. Fruit is whatever we bring forth. There are all kinds of good fruit in Christ which we may bring forth based on our gifts and calling.2 Pe1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Everyone wants to replicate the multitudes that followed Christ, I'm not among them. I'd like to see less fruit in terms of the x's and o's of Church expansion and more in terms of Christians that actually start to look like Christ. Good teachers will lead us to bring forth better fruit in ourselves which will help us better serve our brothers and unbelievers. We don't need more Christians so much as we need better ones... My opinion. The main focus of church growth these days is collecting money to hire pros when we would be a lot better off if we put a little more focus on the individual believer's growth. It is this very lack of attention to the growth of the individual that causes cultic ministries like the Shepherd's Chapel to thrive. People want to do more than give money so that the pros can make more work for themselves and their friends.
----- Original Message -----From: Name WithheldTo: Paul StringiniSent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 7:19 PMSubject: Re: On MurrayI think both can happen simultaneously, no.My personal growth along with bringing people to Jesus....I have to agree with you in respect to the mega churches being big businesses.
----- Original Message -----From: Paul StringiniTo: Name WithheldSent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 12:16 AMSubject: Re: On MurrayI'm glad we agree.
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