----- Original Message -----

From: Name Withheld

To: Paul Stringini

Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 3:37 PM

Subject: Murray

My husband is a general manager of a store, and one of his newer employees started talking "religiously" with him.  He was telling my husband how he has spent years studying scripture, writing and speaking at churches etc.  My husband was curious and listened to his ideas and understanding of scripture.  One day he sent me a text asking questions about some things this guy was stating.  My husband told him that I spend a lot of time 'researching' different religious topics and know more than he does.  So this guy asked him to ask me if I have heard of Arnold Murray.  It just so happens that I was rereading Andrew Murray so I text back and said yes, I am right now and have several of his books, I really enjoy him!! (obviously I thought he meant a different A. Murray!)  Fast forward to when my husband gets home and he starts telling me all these out of the box ideas of scripture that I had never heard before.  I warned my husband and said dont be so easily taken by this guy because he claims to know so much scripture and quote things to you, because it sounds contradictory to other scripture and like he is 'reading into' things.  My husband said, "oh, but he thinks even a child can understand scripture ... " And I said that does not sound like a child could get that from scripture, it sounds like picking and choosing and reading into.  My husband is as I am, not good at retelling a story exactly as we heard it or remembering many exact details, so I asked him to have this guy give him a website or some of his work I could read over and compare it to scripture myself.  A few days later he came home with a few print-outs the guy had in his locker and told me that he gave him our email address and he said he'd email me some information.  One print out was titled Beguiled and the other The Book of Jude.  It was late and I didnt feel like reading them.  My husband wrote down on a piece of paper more info this guy was telling him and I could tell immediately that he was involved in some cultic beliefs.  I kept saying how I was amazed that he liked Andrew Murray with all the views my husband was giving me.  So the next day I check my inbox and this guy sent like ten emails and I was NOT in the mood to go through them all because of what my husband told me the night prior.  Sounded creepy.  I remembered my husband saying that he told him he needed a Companion Bible, so I went to a search engine and typed in Companion Bible.  One of the first links mentioned the name Arnold Murray and I thought OH MY! there really is an Arnold Murray and not Andrew Murray, so of course I clicked it.  It happened to be an atheist website using Murray as a reason why Christianity is a lie, but what he was saying Murray was teaching I thought NO WONDER!!  So I start texting my husband: DO YOU KNOW WHAT THIS GUY BELIEVES??!! Because he was not being so verbally forth coming with my husband about how he actually is a follower of Arnold Murray and not just enjoys listening to his messages, leaving out the details that probably normally scare off other believers.  Anyhow, so I sent a text saying that he believes that Eve had sex with Satan (the apple is not a fruit but Satans SPERM), and that Adam joined in a homosexual orgy of some sorts, and Cain was actually Satans son !!!  My husband text me back saying, enough said! I'm staying away from this guy and not discussing religion any further.  After finding that atheists website I typed in the search engine Companion Bible Arnold Murray, which led me to one of your articles and then I went to your homepage.  And here I am now.  I've spent more than a few hours going through emails on your site learning a lot about this cult and I am very disturbed.  My husband has told me not to email his employee back and to just drop it because he has to work with him.  Of course I am going to listen to my husband, but there is a huge part of me that wants to say something.  You know those same types of feelings that draw you to want to post a website against this false prophet. 
I want to point out that the religious conversations came about because my husband and this employee were talking about being prepared for end times.  I buy milk from a local farmer, and she had sent out this odd email stating that she believes something is going to happen this year and Ezekiel 38 is playing out before our eyes.  For years now my husband and I have been saying how quickly America seems to be declining and now with the state our government is in we worry (not necessarily having to do with "end time prophesies") what is going to happen to America and if we'd be ready and able to feed and protect our kids if something did happen.  Anyhow, these conversations were discussed and this guy starts telling him that he believes through his own mathematics that at the end of 2012 it will be 'the beginning' of the end.  I dont know what all that means, maybe if I'd read the emails he sent me I'd understand it all.  So this man has researched how much food he and his wife will need in order to make it through five months and he said if they can make it through those five months, they'll be fine. And after reading your website I am guessing this comes into play to how long Murray has taught them the Tribulation will last? 
What is interesting is he gives this information to my husband like it is his own findings.  He told him what study guides he needs to find these same principles that he has come to through his study, and what words to look up (in the Strongs etc) and mentioned Murray only once.  Yet these print-outs have the identical verbal wording I am reading online.  I was looking for the piece of paper my husband brought home with some of this guys beliefs scribbled on it so my husband wouldnt forget when talking with me, and instead I found another little piece of paper that says: Shepherd's Chapel 800-643-4645 .... so although he seems to be taking the credit for his 'studying' and coming to his 'own' conclusions, ultimately he is wanting to convert us to become occultic sheep of Murray's Shepherds Chapel. 
Forget giving us the message of Christ, guiding us in Truth and Light to encourage us in a relationship with the Lord ... just indoctrinate us with fairytales and encourage us to follow down this path to Murrays understanding. I often tell people, "I'm a very biblical person, if you start talking about things outside of scripture I get very uncomfortable .... "  BUT I MEAN IT!! This guy says something similar but he doesn't mean it.  He told my husband it is all biblical, all sound, you just have to know what words to look up and in what book.  It is simple a child could understand.  Nonsense!  I find it very complicated and reading between the lines.  I homeschool my son who is only nine, and we started reading from Genesis the beginning of the year, and do you think my son understood the bible to say any of that nonsense ?? We are reading from KJV.  Nope, sorry, he does not understand it to say that.  He understands the fruit to be fruit, the snake to be a snake.  And what should I tell my son are the cherubim, with their flaming swords, are guarding?  If Satan is the tree of life, then these cherubim are basically hiding him?  What is the teaching there?  There are too many 'loose ends', not enough biblical facts.  It just seems downright stupid to me.
And I am offended at the story being told of Satans seed, and then to add that Adam had homosexual relations also.  Really?  Perverse. 
I want to thank you for your website, I found lots of good information and find you very knowledgeable in scripture.  (even beyond disproving Murray followers) 
You can see how your website is at least helping protect those who the Murray cult are trying to indoctrinate!  That, in and of itself, is wonderful.  I know I wouldnt have been fooled by this doctrine, but there are others who are new in Christ or even nonbelievers who could be fooled by their 'knowledge', and if they come across your website, you have strong biblical proof to show them otherwise.  As with other deceivers, they seem to be very eloquent with their words, sounding knowledgeable and well versed, intriguing and disciplined!  This guy was telling my husband how he gets up every morning and studies the bible for a few hours, which did make an impression on my husband.  Thank you for your efforts to protect others and sounding a warning. 
I am going to go continue to read your website and look on the Shepherds Chapel website also, and I suppose skim through the emails I received from this other guy.  He did tell my husband he is not part of a church and the bible speaks about this, is this a Murray teaching? We live in FL, my husband said this guy is probably in his 50s (we are 34).  I also dont know if your website is expired and if you'll even get this email or even care to receive it! :)  I just thought maybe you'd be interested to know that Murray followers are still out indoctrinating in FL and crafty as ever if you ask me!
 

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To: Name Withheld

Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 4:04 PM

Subject: Re: Murray

Wow, I just got done reading your message.  And It was a pleasure to hear from you. I am very pleased and blessed to hear that my website has been of assistance to you. I actually have a whole lot of emails on my computer right now that I have got to get posted but I'm in a bit of a time crunch because I'm trying to finish an important scripture-music project (and since you and your husband are near my age and interested in prophecy you might be interested in my "Book of Revelation" when it is finished, I have made the entire book of Revelation into a series of songs, in folk-metal style).  I do update my website slowly, but like a glacier it may move slowly but there is a whole lot of ice coming down the mountain. There is not a lot to reply to because I can see that you have the situation well in hand, and that all I can really do for is confirm what you already know and share a few words of fellowship with you, and that is not without benefit.  I don't blame you for not wanting to study Arnold Murray's teachings too deeply.  I have never had the patience to study things I KNOW to be wrong.  At this stage in my life I am raising seven children with my wife, trying to earn a living and conducting a four pronged ministry, so I don't think I could tolerate spending time researching Mormon beliefs or the Koran, but I came by my knowledge of Arnold Murray when I was young and impressionable and I sincerely believed in them, and this was the Lord's doing.  Arnold Murray was my teacher.

 

He plays a very clever confidence game.  He uses flattery and other  questionable tactics on his students and they want to see what he suggests is written between the lines or as he says "the deeper level."  And I heartily agree, and have often said, that there is not a child born on this earth who would read Genesis and come to the conclusion that Edam and Eve did not indeed eat fruit from any kind of tree.  While I was a student they had this awful "Discovering God's "Natural Truth"  Children's book designed to teach children about what happened in the garden, but the book really beat around the bush much like your husbands acquaintance and talked about Twins (because they believe Cain and Abel were twins by two fathers)  In fact this "beating around the bush"  is exactly the way you are taught to "plant seeds" by Arnold Murray.  He tells people that you never just come out and say, "Eve had Sex with the Serpent" or that "The Jews are the descendants of Cain, by Satan"  what he tells them to do is to jump around the bible to these selected passages and suggest certain things to prepare the ground and you eventually get around to the "deeper truth" 

 

 

You made some comments about the end times and I'll tell you my honest opinion,  I do not believe that we are in the end times.  America could pass into oblivion as many great empires of the past have done, and it would signify nothing and that is reason enough to act wisely, because if I believed I was in the end times I would not trouble myself with food or water, God would sustain me.  There is this belief going around since I was a child that we are somehow already in the end times.  If this is the end times it is pretty pathetic and disappointing if you asked me, based on what I was led to believe in the bible.  If it was the end times we would all know it was the end times. Just as the people in Jesus day were expecting the messiah and knew they were in the times of the messiah .  So the scriptures agree.

 

I look for "fearful signs in the heavens,"

 

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

The whole world is going to be in a REAL uproar and they will know the end is upon them.

 

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is what will lead people to worship the false Christ, they will be anxious to receive one they believe can save them and they will believe he is Christ and will save them.

 

People often ask me how I know that the first few trumpets  ought to be taken  in their plain meaning and not symbolically.  A trumpet is a signal and therefore it must be understandable.

 

1Cor 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

 

I define "the end times" very strictly.  The end times begin with the sounding of the first trumpet.  Hail and fire will fall to the earth and be mingled with blood causing massive deforestation and destruction of vegetation.  (The mingling with blood may signify that the hail and fire will directly cause injury and bloodshed, i.e. the hail will be large enough to cause injury)   Then "as it were" a great mountain, burning with fire will be cast into the sea and destroy 1/3 of the ships and 1/3 of sea life.  I do not think that he had a word for a meteor or comet strike (the first trump may be directly connected to the second and third and fourth).   These are the fearful signs in the heavens, these will signify the commencement of the end times.  Of course these things could begin happening soon, I suppose. 

 

This is just my opinion, and not a prediction, but I believe the end times, and Christ's return will be sometime around 2030 or so, I have no idea of the precise time,  this is based on a very simple calculation, that Jesus will return in the year 2000.  Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his ministry.  And they say he was crucified in AD 30 or 33 so if he returns two thousand years later that would be sometime around 2030, could be sooner,  could be later  could be totally wrong.  The only real hint at that would be the prophecy of  Hosea 6:2

 

1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

It is rather obscure but it would make sense for God to conceal the fact that he would be gone so long, otherwise men would take confidence in is absence and grow complacent.  Everyone was up in arms around the year 2000, but on God's calendar 2012 might really be 1982.  So I think 2012 will be absolutely nothing prophetically. 

 

But I like my calculation better than all the other complicated ones.  But as I said, America can descend into chaos with out the end times even hinting at beginning, we are not so critical to God's designs as many suppose. 

 

Anyway if you ever have any question feel free to write, I do not always reply this fast but I will reply

Sincerely

Paul Stringini

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Name Withheld

To: Paul Stringini

Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 1:00 PM

Subject: RE: Murray

I do like to look into different religious topics, and when I was younger I did some research on other religions because I thought it was the 'intelligent' thing to do; instead of just blindly following a faith I was raised in.  
I am an unfortunate person in that I cant retain well.  I have had several major head collisions :) and I believe this is my problem.  I know what I believe, but I am not good at quoting verses and telling you where in the bible to find it.  But if given the time I will find it.  I LOVE doing religious research, I can waste hours away on a topic, that leads to another, that leads to another ...  
 
I get tongue tied easily and my brain gets foggy (hard to explain); I am better in 'written' form, but get really wordy.  I love it when I am talking to someone and God lets the words flow, He is amazing like that.  I have been blessed with an understanding of discernment (and I say understanding because I think some can be learned), and often see through situations and people quickly.  I hear often (even outside of religious situations), "you were right!" after having assessed a person and their motives and them later coming out in their true light.  But by no means do I think I know everything scripturally (because I dont!) or that all my views and opinions are dead on (and I dont believe ANYONEs are). But I am known to be very passionate and full of opinions!
 
I do not want to study Arnold Murray at all! But yes, very curious on what is going on out there in the world.  :)  I believe that Satan will deliver a whole lot of truth, as long as he can sway you with (at least) one lie.  If he didnt do that, he would not be crafty. 
 
I will be honest, I am not in 100% agreeance with all your views on Christianity itself (not having to do with Murray or his followers).  I think this would bother you more than me, at least that is what it sounds like when I read through your emails to other people.  That some things to me that are not 'salvation' issues, are signs to you that someone is not truly saved.  I of course could be way off there, but it sorta sounds that way when I read your replies to some of your emails.
 
I am not dogmatic over things like "the end times".  I dont see how anyone could be.  I understand having strong opinions and views (I am thick with them!), but I couldnt say that someone is not of God because their end times beliefs are not the same as mine.
Even though I have an opinion, I pretty much think anything is possible (well not anything).  I don't believe the end is here yet, but I think that things are lining up for the end.  That does not mean that this year is the year or even within the next 100 years!  But it seems obvious to me that things are happening.  When it comes to being prepared for something to happen to America, to me, this does not mean that the end is here.  I think Americans get so wrapped up in thinking we are the great Christian Nation that if something happens to her, that means the end is here.  I find America very shameful (I am still proud to be an American, so don't read too far into that statement), and with homosexuality now being thick in not only politics but religion, Christians are so eager to preach 'peace and love' in a nonscriptural manner, Christianity has been preached to the world (amongst many other reasons), I only see a spiraling down and it is hard to imagine America turning back towards God.  But it would be awesome if we would!  I can see things like Marshall law being implemented or our land being attacked ... anything is possible, and this is all possible without it being 'end times'.  Do I believe it plays a part in end times?  Yes!  But does it mean that it has to be THE END TIMES? No.  If that made sense at all. 
 
It seems to me that when a prophesy has come to fruition, it is not realized until after it has happened or maybe during; seeming as though the prophesy is not for those prior to but for those after (prophesy is important for us to know whether we are apart of it and to teach to our children etc, so once again, dont read too far into that statement).  Speculations on when the end will be here are just that to me; speculations.  Anyone who becomes dogmatic over the timing or even believing within themselves that they could actually have this figured out, causes me to become skeptical.  Also, I do feel that when we get overly dogmatic in our views, and start preaching them as the gospel truth, we could be squeezing God out and keeping Him from shining light on our souls, believing; "Op!  I understand it all and now all I have to do is preach what I know to be truth!"  Where I think we will be learning until we die.  Not that I am free of being dogmatic myself!  But, in my opinion it can be dangerous in areas.  Also, sometimes in our dogmatic views we tend to judge others hearts and question their security.
 
When it comes to preaching the end times, whether someone is giving an opinion or view that they think is possible or just preaching from the pulpit, I think it is important to stress that only Jesus knows for sure.  But regardless, we should be watching and vigilant, we should be training our children and well versed ... but we should not be so wrapped up in Revelations and prophesies (amongst other things) that we are missing the rest and most important message of our Savior; finding peace and security in Him.  And that is what I think this Arnold Murray is doing.  Why is this guy preaching at my husband about understanding this coo-coo stuff over preaching the great peace of our Lord?  I dont get that.  Well I do get it, and it has to do with Satan.  He is taking our eyes off Jesus and skirting them around Him.  I actually have bigger concerns with people following after Oprah's "wisdom", Rick Warren, reading from The Message, Joel Olsten, the Pope ....  these things concern me because they are not preaching a 'creepy' message, but yet just as dangerous!  A luke-warm message, a half-hearted message, peace and love message (tolerance), materialistic message .... you get my drift.  Equally taking their eyes off the Lord, yet in a more acceptable manner.  Their religion is easy to follow and doesnt expect much of their devotees. Almost like you can get to heaven just by being 'good enough'.  And no matter someone's religious views, if they are good people ... all roads lead to heaven. On the other hand, Murray expects a lot from his followers, and the reason he may attract those who would be turned off by the list of people above, is because they want to be apart of something, (something they understand and others dont), and who may struggle with being arrogant and puts too much into being well-educated (knowledgeable), even in knowing and quoting the scripture so easily has distracted them from the truth!  That is why the 'elitest' views may attract to them.  Satan needs to divert everyone!  I just think of what great work Murray followers would be for God (like you turned out) if they were to follow Christ instead of him!
 
There are several topics I'd enjoy to discuss (not debate; converse) just from reading your website a little further (nonMurray issues), but my goodness you have SEVEN kids and you are MY age ??? !!! WOW! Give your wife some breathing space haha  I came from a family of six kids and loved it! 
Thanks for taking the time to respond, I honestly didnt expect it !!  Good luck with your other projects to edify others outside of the Murray cult!

 

p s  and sorry if this is choppy and does not have a 'flow' ... it is rare I can sit down and type a complete message in one sitting !!! :)

and p s s  It'd be nice if you could add dates to your emails so those of who read can get an idea when this is taking place.  AND do you have an email newsletter? where people could sign up and as you add things to your site they'd get email updates? that'd be cool. it is easier then trying to remember to check back in periodically. 

----- Original Message -----

From: Name Withheld

To: Paul Stringini

Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 9:48 PM

Subject: RE: Murray

I dont under mind the fact that doctrine is important. And I am also not wishy-washy and non-opinion forming. Like I said, I am known to be very passionate and opinionated. (I just dont want to come to you and be preachy or try to change your mind - I dont feel led to do so - nor did I come to your site with a debating spirit.) For example, one of the reasons I like researching different religious topics is because it is hard for me to see very much gray; most things are black and white. If there is a question, I want to get to the bottom of it and find an answer ... there has to be an answer! (that is what I often think) This does not mean that I always find one or cant be changed, because God has changed my mind more than once! (and I guarantee He will again) When it comes to the end times, after reviewing several different convicted-opinions and trying to understand it myself, I have come to the conclusion that I dont think end-time beliefs should be apart of a churches creed. I would think that it is obvious I am not talking about cultic views and opinions, or those who are not only perverted on their end time views but also in other areas of scripture. People who are dogmatic with their end time views sometimes take it too far, often creating not only a stumbling block for themselves, but others. I do not mind people having a strong view on prophesies. And if you felt I was being critical of YOU, I was not, and sorry if I may have offended you or you felt me judgy towards you.

False doctrine is a sin. Most of us believe that we are following scripture and not reading into it. We should constantly be self-examining and ever-growing.

I believe that from the moment God decided to make the earth, until it has all passed away, things are lining up for the end. When I said that in my last email, I was not meaning fulfilled prophesies are lining things up. Everything on earth is happening for a reason, and I think God has it all worked out for the end. He could make the end planned, SNAP! tomorrow, who knows?  I believe God has a plan, knows His plan, and has everything set in motion. Everything plays a part in what is to come in the end, but are these things prophesies being fulfilled? No. I respect your conviction otherwise.

This is not a dissagreement I'm just saying this because im interested, but I guess that statement confuses me a little, because on one hand you say their religion is easy to follow, true, but on the other hand you are saying that they almost seem to be saying that by being "good enough" they can earn their way to heaven, If I'm reading you right. That is an insurmountable task, earning your way to heaven, I don't really think that is very prevalent. Actually what I think they do is that they basically tell people that they are already "good enough" and that all they lack is accepting Jesus as their personal savior. As if to say, "you can be gay, or live in fornication, or do all manner of sin, and it is ok because Jesus loves you, just plug in to our program and you will be saved." I don't think it is much in vogue today to require much of anything of people least of all the faith required to turn from sin.

Everyone has some sort of doctrine that leads to salvation, and it is always about being "good enough," is it not? We have to believe the right things don't we? We have to have faith in Christ and his resurrection, don't we? If we do not have faith, we cannot be saved, am I right? But not all men have faith, so even a capacity to have faith itself is a gift, and one cannot be saved without it. So if we don't have faith, we are not "good enough" to be saved. I'm being intentionally provokative, I just want to make you think and question your understanding. There is something we have to measure up to. Not to earn salvation, that is impossible. But salvation is not just a moment of belief, salvation causes us to continue in the faith, as it is said, we go from faith to faith. We are supposed to grow into the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Works do not produce salvation, but salvation is seen by the works that happen in us and through us. So being "good enough" is not what saves you, but rather, in saving us, God changes us and we become more like him.

To your comment above, I am not fully sure how to take your response, so the best I can do is further explain myself. I believe the message that is being taught by mainstream Christianity is 'tolerance'. So being good-enough is not really an act. I think most people are naturally good-enough.  And, no, being good does not save you. Christ alone does. Through your faith in Christ, if you allow Him to work through you, He will do the works that matter. HE WILL WORK THROUGH YOU. You can take zero credit for any amount of heavenly work being done by you. All work being done by you are works that are not of God, they matter, and only have the appearance to matter.

The message being taught is that we must be tolerant, we must not proclaim and preach the Truth, and if you are not tolerant you are not acting like Jesus, nor do you have the love of Jesus. That is false. Preaching the Truth is love; tolerance is hate.

You asking me if they believe in Jesus is not significant, because even Satan believes in Jesus. These people preach a god that does not line up with scripture, so whether they believe in Jesus or preach Jesus to some degree, does not matter to me. And it was not my intention, through saying that I see fault in a dogmatic view of the end times, to insinuate that there is no 'essentials' to my doctrine. And I hope I am more tolerant to things I dont fully understand, or I'd be some sort of hypocrite indeed.

I think it is a great thing that you treat everyone as though God sent them to you when answering emails! A great way to treat your mission. But I think you may not have understood me well or I did a poor job by not wanting to state what I felt to be the obvious, which must not be. Some of your email seems like you are schooling me on things I had already stated, and not confirming. So I must not be so clear. Nonetheless, it's been a pleasure! God Bless you and your family !!

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To: Name Withheld

Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 10:22 PM

Subject: Re: Murray

I'm sorry if I came off as schooling you in areas we agreed, like I said in the first message, I really don't have much to add to what you were saying.

 

Sincerely,

Paul Stringini