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"I have completely abandoned SC for good. It has been a long hard road."

Questions about the Trinity, Christian Conduct, Death, Leaving a Church, Why I do not Study the Bible

Question/Comment:

My Response:

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To: Name Withheld

Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 2:10 PM

Subject: Re: Hello Again

Hi again,

I emailed you a year or so ago ( you actually posted our transaction on your website). 

 

 It's good to hear from you again.  I was wondering if you were ever going to ask those other questions you mentioned.

 

I've been in a state of flux since we last talked. I have completely abandoned SC for good. it has been a long hard road.

I hate that I have spread Pastor Murray's lies to so many people over the years (I had a website, I've handed out pamphlets, etc..)..

 

It took me a period of ten years from the time I first began to be disillusioned (around 1995-1996) till I was ready to publicly speak against the things taught at the Shepherd's Chapel.  During that time it was like I was half for the things I learned there (or for half of them) and half against.  In the first couple years I had been very zealous, handing out tapes and leading bible studies promoting the doctrines Pastor Murray teaches, I promoted them to family members (most of whom were just glad to see me interested in religion) and to friends and strangers.  I was about as persuasive as one could be with the set of evidence I had been taught to use to prove my points.  I guess part of why I did the Shepherd's Chapel page on my website was to make up for it.  It definitely lost me some friends.  One friend I met through the Shepherd's Chapel called me just to make sure he could believe what he was reading, and he has never spoken to me again.  (He started talking to me again, after a negative experience at the chapel, but has since reconciled himself to the Chapel and I expect we will not speak together much again)

 

 I pray for God's forgiveness on that.

Teaching heresy or spreading false doctrine are sins, but these sins are as forgivable as any other sins.  It is not unlike the saga of the Apostle Paul.  The thing we need for forgiveness is repentance.  That's what I tell people when they try to tell me that teaching false doctrine is "no big deal"  and that I ought to forgive Pastor Murray.  If we don't seek forgiveness we won't be forgiven.  But you are forgiven.  Not by my authority, but by that of God.  Just look for the chances to turn over your old works.  For no other reason than your zeal for the truth. 

 

I've started to learn the real important things in scripture which pastor Murray has robbed from me by making me think I was some special "elect" with secret knowledge. blasphemy!

 

A very convenient truth.  "If you accept what I say, then God thinks you are special."  I feel like I was so naive. And I was, I was naive and ignorant.  You are right.  The most important knowledge contained in the scripture is right on the surface,  you don't need a Strong's concordance, you don't need to be an expert on the Masora, you need merely accept what the bible is teaching.  The biggest thing in understanding the scriptures is getting a nice broad base of knowledge of what the bible says. Pastor Murray, as you know, uses his pet doctrines and personal opinions (common sense) to distract and overturn what the bible is saying.  I listened to him recently ( I have not in some time)  and It all came back to me.  Mostly what you learn from Pastor Murray is his personal philosophy wrapped in the biblical narrative.

 

as for speaking in Tongues.. I'm still up in the air about it.. If it is true then God will simply have to make it happen for me. other then that I'm not too concerned. 

 

It is not about speaking in tongues.  It is about receiving the spirit of God.  When nothing had ever happened to me to let me know that God's spirit had entered in, I had doubt, I had all these problems and I was never sure, because there was nothing to assure me.  I saw no evidence in the scripture that would lead me to believe that the holy spirit is supposed to come silently and imperceptibly in to us at our back and call.  After I received the spirit with evidence (as I have described  on my website and I assume that you read that) I wanted my wife to receive it, but it took over two years, she, like me, was not willing to fake it, and God was not ready to give it, she fasted and wept, she rejoiced and danced, but God does not just come when we want. My point about that is that until you can point to a notable experience where the spirit of God enters in, not only should you doubt tongues, but you would also doubt that God has given you his spirit.  Not only have you not experience tongues, you have not experience the baptism of the holy spirit either, so why should you believe that you have the spirit of God?  And if you do not have the spirit of God, you ought to seek it.  This is not just my opinion.  The bible makes it clear, every time people were receiving the baptism of the holy spirit, it was a notable event.  And you ought to seek that notable event.  Do not look for tongues, the Apostles were not looking for tongues on Pentecost, I was not looking for tongues, but when the Holy ghost is given, tongues show up, you will see.  Take no confidence in the empty words of men that would discourage you from seeking the baptism of the holy spirit by telling you that you already have it.  The baptism of the holy spirit should be as notable as your water baptism.  Just start asking for it.  You don't need to be worried about it because God will give his spirit to those that seek it, but you must seek it until it is given and then continue to seek it after it is given.  We need the holy spirit always, it is our EARNEST MONEY.  March 20, 2005  God gave me a big chunk of earnest money, a baptism with power and stammering lips, I felt the power, those about me heard the tongues.  If you can get by without any earnest money from an invisible God who generally hides himself, then you are a better man than me, because that day changed my life for ever.  Ask and it shall be given you seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you, for to the one who KNOCKS is the door opened.  If you don't ask, maybe nothing will ever happen.  But don't ask for tongues (it is just a side effect).

 

I've started reading the Bible from "cover to cover" without any pre-conceived Ideas (from murray or anybody else) and let the scriptures speak for themselves.

 

That is very excellent, I don't know if that is absolutely possible, but It sound like you are ready to do a good job. 

 

I'm going to start letting the Spirit teach me and not some man or church.

 

Wait, you were casting aside "preconceived Ideas."  Is it not also a preconceived idea that whatever is taught by some man or some church is automatically to be despised?  I'm not trying to be a jerk, nor am I against what you want to do. I guess because I'm a bible teacher I take a little exception to that because I think I have a pure gospel..  What makes you and I different?  Are you not also "some man?"  When you read the bible, should you even toss out everything you have learned, let alone reject that which others have learned?  Or should you subject everything you have learned to real scrutiny?  What you propose may be far too difficult, your perceptions will be shaped to some degree by your preconceptions, (minus the ones you are consciously suppressing).  This can happen sub-consciously.  I think you are better off consciously testing things you know, rather than trying to pretend that you are a clean slate, when that is just not what you are.   I want you to be on your guard, I say this because I lived it, just because we tell ourselves  "I'll let the spirit guide me,"  what does that really mean?  Does God also consent to be our guide?  It might just be us guiding ourselves, and not God, and I do not say this to discourage you either, NO, but rather to provoke you to use great diligence and great care. I did it for ten years, I studied the bible on my own and tried to do it without preconceived ideas, but I just ended up not having any idea what I really believed until God gave me revelation and then it all changed in one day.  One day.  We can deceive ourselves more  readily than other men can force deception on us (and that is the heart of deception, we lead ourselves astray).  I can lead myself astray faster than Arnold Murray could, because I think God is leading me.   How do you think the first men like Arnold Murray arise? 

 

The bible was written by men, we accept that they were men led of God, it is good also to meet living men who are also led of God, and they certainly must exist.  There are things written in one place that can be clarified by that which is written in another, sometimes it is nice to have someone show us some things rather than to try to learn it all from scratch.  God ordains some teachers after all.  And God not only leads you in the scriptures, he also led you to Pastor Murray, he then led you away from him, and he also led you to me, and I'm sure he will lead you elsewhere too, but so long as you are here, I will tell you what I think will be helpful.  So it is not wrong to listen some to a teacher, it can be a great asset, don't shut yourself out from these spiritual gifts because going it 100% solo sounds good to you. I don't know if you noticed but I started a line by line bible study, http://oraclesofgod.org/studies/studies.html you will find it very different from Pastor Murray's style of teaching, in any case, you can benefit from it, I certainly benefited by doing it, I'm trying to do what you are trying to do, to find out the truth.

 

I've also left the "KJV only" camp and i read from many translation now (been a pure blessing).

 

I don't object to other translations, I do object to the idea of "King James only" because the king James has some big mistakes in it. But I'm most familiar with the KJV (and its failings) so that is what I use, compensating for it.  Some modern translations are good, but some will be less than good (the Living Bible).  But to achieve the level of familiarity I have with the KJV in another version would be too much for me at this stage.  It is the sort of thing one must settle on at an early stage.  When the translations use different wording, looking up verses becomes a bear, trying to remember which translation it was in, but I suppose the internet would be some help with that.  Just don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, that is my advice for what it's worth.  You may benefit from using other translations, but in the end, we must bear fruit, so you have to think about which translation will be most helpful to you when you are ready to teach others,  and there is no "right" translation for everyone for that.

 

 I cannot believe I have been denied all these Spiritual gifts because I wanted to believe in a what a man taught because it sounded good to my ears.. the ways of man might seem right but the end is death

 

I guess it was more than Pastor Murray and the Shepherd's Chapel you were into, because he sells several different translations of the bible such as Moffatt's and Green's.

 

I really feel I've been set free. When I was studying with SC I would drink, watch porn, and have a foul mouth and never thought anything wrong with it.. now I seem to have no desire for any of that stuff anymore. 

 

I'm glad to hear that. On two accounts, 1) that you are heeding the bible and trying to walk according to righteousness,  2) that you are confirming what I say, that Pastor Murray's teachings encourage (at least some of us) to go right on sinning.  Even if he would not personally approve. There is something in his teachings that places a greater priority on accepting the right set of doctrines over any personal behaviors.  Whereas the bible draws no distinctions.  Doctrine and personal behavior are intertwined, having the right doctrine will not allow for unrighteousness, because there is a doctrine which is according to righteousness, and righteousness will not tolerate false doctrine.

 

2Tim 3:16 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

It is funny how people say we can't be perfect but the bible demands it.  I'm not there yet, but I trust we are on that path.  We must accept perfection as our immediate goal.

 

I was curious what your views are on the Trinity?

 

I wrote an article on the nature of God, I have not written specifically on the trinity (except that some people say that the trinity IS the nature of God), but I do not trust the council of Nicea, so I do not use the trinity word or the mantras they recommend.  My opinions are clearly laid out in this article:  http://oraclesofgod.org/doctrine/01_On_Jesus_Christ.htm and another specifically addressing the Trinity

 

Also do you believe that we have to become completely sinless? and do you believe in "soul-sleep" or that there is no intermediate state between death and resurrection?

 

If I am not completely sinless, I cannot be like Christ, and I must be like Christ, so, yes, we must be perfect.

 

II Corinthians 7
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

But it is not possible for man to live a sinless life.  All have sinned.  So this is a matter for going forward, we have to "grow up" into him.  So the message of scripture is of growth, maturity, and perfection

 

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

This is no small thing, and this is what Christianity is all about, this is what my bible study is about, the realization of the Christian Gospel.  That is what I seek and that is what I teach.  Read this without preconceptions,

 

2Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

We add to our faith, from faith to faith, from righteousness to righteousness, we continue and grow in the faith, we continue in righteousness and grow in it, greater and greater until perfection.

 

I do like to tell people this fact.  Jesus Christ was not perfect. He was sinless, but he was not perfect in his lifetime, until he died.  He had to be made perfect, through suffering. So I can't call myself perfect without suffering. (REAL SUFFERING)

 

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

We do not expect total perfection until death, but we do NOT want to die in our sins, to die in our sins is a testimony of unbelief.

 

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

We should not die like that. We want to die in righteousness, serving the Lord.

 

There are people out there who will say that they are sinless, and maybe they are, but just like with every gift from God, it ought to come with humility and understanding,

 

1 Cor 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

 

Stuff happens to people, they get caught up in sin, this is how we should react:

 

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

 

And that word overtaken means "caught"  Sometimes people have to get caught, sometimes they come around on their own.  (The Lord's help is implicit in all I say about overcoming sin.)  But we ought to consider ourselves, because we might be tempted too.

 

Romans 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

 

Verse 4 can apply to men who have overcome sins, and what Paul is saying is that when we judge people who are stuck in sins, it is like we despise the goodness and patience of God  that led us to repentance.  We were stuck too.  And God suffered long with us.   And Just because we overcame some sin by God's power at a point in time does not mean that that is where everyone else ought to be right now too.  God gives us a gift and sometimes people forget it was a gift.      God is patient and longsuffering (but not forever!)  and leads us to repentance, we do not want to be despisers of God's longsuffering lest we condemn ourselves.  But we cannot do sins and expect to inherit the kingdom of God.  The judgment of God stands sure.

 

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies (false doctrine),
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

 (But I'll let God be patient with me and with others, but as for me, I recommend speed, diligence, desire, and zeal, just because God is patient with our sins does not mean we should be patient in seeking righteousness!) 

 

Thenew testament is all about this, I recommend my bible studies.  I may be just another man but my Gospel is pure.  http://oraclesofgod.org/studies/studies.html

 

and do you believe in "soul-sleep" or that there is no intermediate state between death and resurrection?  I'm starting to notice in scripture that there seems to be no consciousness after death until the resurrection.

Subsequent to this conversation I published the following page on the subject of Death and the Resurrection of the Dead
http://oraclesofgod.org/doctrine/03_the_resurrection_of_the_dead.htm

 

Absolutely, Death is the intermediate state between life and resurrection and people act like it does not exist.  But that is how it really is, the dead are really dead.   I have less and less time lately and I just wrote a 72 year old Chapel listener  on this subject (literally two days ago) I'll get to your Lazarus question in a moment

 

One question, what does the verse- absent from the body is to be present with the Lord- mean?

Certainly, The verse you are referring to does not contain the phrase "is to be."  When it is repeated and repeated to you like that, eventually, you begin to think that those words are in the bible. I call this "conditioning." (this is an important concept if you are trying to read the bible fresh -Colby Braden) But the bible does not say, "to be absent form the body is to be present with the Lord." And more importantly, neither does it say that "to be absent" is "to be dead." (Which is your conditioned assumption) Here is what it actually says:

 

2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

 Paul says that while we are at home in the body we are not present with the Lord (v6).   In v7 he says that we are willing to be absent from the body, and present with the Lord.  Paul is expressing our desire to be with the Lord in the resurrrection. 

 

The passage does not say that "absent from the body" equals death.  But that is precisely the assumption that people are making, but it is totally wrong.  Why is that assumption being made?  The bible never says that death is absence from the body, any where. 

 

What we really have here is reading of the modern philosophy back into the bible.  People today believe that when you die, you leave your body, so they assume that when Paul says "absent from the body"  he meant death, But Paul did not mean that, he never meant that, because Paul believed that death was like sleep (as I will show).  People are just reading their own assumptions back into the bible. The resurrection is the ONLY event that gives us our new body and makes the old body dissolve.  The bible always speaks of the dead as being in their bodies (as I will show). 

 

Paul started out this chapter (2Cor 5) with this verse:

 

2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

 

Paul uses the word "dissolved"  because he means something other than death.  It is not death he is talking about, but the blessing of God on those who believe, the resurrection.  In death, the body does not dissolve. It decomposes, but that is not dissolution.  Look that word up in your Strong's, it means disintegration.

 

Let us look at the bigger context:

 

2Cor 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

That all goes together, it is about the resurrection, not about death, so add in the other verses too.

 

2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2Cor:5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

 

What does it mean to be unclothed?   It must mean to be without a body entirely. Here is our model: When Jesus died, it says he "gave up the ghost"  but it was written of him that he was buried and that "his souls was not left in hell" and Jesus did not "ascend to his father" until after the resurrection.  Jesus went into the grave, that is where the person Jesus was for three days, this is central to Christianity.  He did not ascend to heaven as a disembodied spirit, or in any way.  Though the spirit retruns to God, the person, the man Jesus, David, etc.  are dead and buried.  The spirit is not the person, the spirit is the life from God.  Are we absent from the body in death?  No.  "To be absent from the body" is not death. The bible never speaks of the dead as being absent from the body, the dead are in their bodies, the bible teaches that the way out of the body is to be clothed upon with something else in the resurrection. 

 

Paul was also speaking hypothetically of being "unclothed"  what he was saying is that what we have in God is not merely flesh and bone and that if you took all this away we would still have something, something glorious, heavenly.  We obtain that in the resurrection and we are willing rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, because that is the promise of the resurrection.

 

Also we can't take something like this out of the context of everything Paul taught. 

 

Why does he always speak of death as sleep if it is NOTHING like sleep, but more like waking?  That is a good question.

 

Paul said that those who say the dead have already risen have erred.

 

2 Timothy 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

That right there is important because whatever we want to say, the context here is this:

 

2Cor 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

If the dead are in heaven then it is not by resurrection, but by some other means (unless you wish to openly join Hymenaeus and Philetus, which would be the honest thing for these teachers to do).  What would that be called?  How about the Transition?  But the bible talks about Death and Resurrection.  Not Death, Transition, and Resurrection.  The dead are spoken of as "asleep"   Jesus is our model, the day he died, he did not go to paradise, he went to "hell" the grave.   He was there three days.  He is the first born of the dead, the first to rise.  everyone else is going to go through the same experience except that we will see corruption, but God will raise us up as he raised Jesus up.  And no man has ascended into heaven, but he that came down from heaven, the son of man which is in heaven. This is the very HEART of Christianity.  All the corruption over the doctrine of the resurrection is one of the worst things going on these days in Christianity  as far as doctrine goes.  Rapture, transitions, nonsense. 

 

I know there are a few passages that people use to cast doubt on the truth about the resurrection, 1) 2 Cor 5 (to be absent...etc.) is one,  2) the thief on the cross (a case of bad punctuation, Jesus did not go to paradise on that day, he made a promise "I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise)  3) The Parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the subject is not "where the dead are" but how the Pharisees had corrupted the law of Moses and the prophets, I have written extensively on this, this is a parable, a Jewish fable, the story is not meant to communicate how things really work in the resurrection but rather the story is mocking the doctrine of the Pharisees who created the idea of "Abraham's bosom" and other unbiblical "Jewish fables" contained in the parable)  4)  The souls under the Altar, in revelation John sees visions of the dead, but these visions are prophetic and apocalyptic in nature, not doctrinal, screaming under the altar does not sound like heaven, it is a vision, not intended to overthrow the doctrine of the resurrection.  5) "and the spirit returns to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes) This is doctrinal but we have the example of Christ, he "gave up the ghost" and his spirit returned to God, but "his soul was not left in hell"  he was buried for three days.  The spirit is not the man.

 

I have gone over these in detail in writing and in my bible studies.  None of those passages (except 2Cor 5) are really about the resurrection, and 2 Cor 5 is not about death (as is Eccles 12). Some are parts of a narrative, a vision, a parable, that is not very strong evidence.  The passages that speak of resurrection and death in a doctrinal context, are actually very clear and all in agreement. 

 

Here is another thing to consider.  Ok, so there are about 5 passages that have to be dealt with from the other (popular) point of view, but really I would throw out #1 ( 2Cor 5 ) and #5 (Ecclesiastes) because they are not really problematic, the other three require some explanation and some people might rightly feel like there is some big interpreting going on.  But what is the alternative?  How many passages have to be explained with big interpreting if we try to adopt the POPULAR view?

 

Let's See...

 

Psalm 88:10 Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. (obviously not denying resurrection but rather showing the powerlessness of the dead)
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Death is the land of forgetfulness.  It is like dreamless sleep.  Terrible and beautiful.  Cruel and Merciful.

 

Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

If the dead do not sleep how do we explain this?

 

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

 

If the dead do not sleep how do we explain that?

 

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

 

Why does Isaiah say this if none of it is true?  If the dead do not dwell in the dust?

 

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

That is the idea.

 

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

 

"When they shall rise"?  Is he saying they have not already risen?

 

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If they are not in their graves, then how will they hear him?

 

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

...31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

...34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:

 

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

These passages are very different from the passages used to object to the ideas contained in them.  These passages are about doctrine.  They are meant to communicate the facts about death and resurrection.  Death and resurrection are the subject of these passages.

 

1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

Why does Paul talk about the dead like this if death is nothing like sleep?  If we say it is because he is speaking only from the perspective of the living then I would have to  say that the living usually refer to them as "GONE." Not sleeping.  And if they are really "gone" but appear only to be sleeping to us, then why does Paul choose this word "sleep."  Because Paul knows they are going to RISE, not "COME BACK,"  but they are going to RISE.  So the word sleep is used because whether the living are looking at it, or the dead are looking at it death is like sleep, Paul means to communicate that death is a temporary state and that the dead are not gone, they will rise.

 

Matt 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. (Why not say, "Fear not, she is with the Father in heaven, I will call her back." Is Jesus trying to confuse us?)

 

Mark 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
40 And they laughed him to scorn.   (Why not say, "She is in a better place.  Let's rejoice for her."?)

 

Luke 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.  (Why not say, "Bless the Transition.  She has crossed over.")

 

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

John 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (This is what the Old testament taught, and Christ affirmed this truth)
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (he died)

 

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: (if he was in heaven how would he see corruption?)

 

1Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (But they say that none of us sleep, they say that we are gone)

 

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (by raising them from the dead, like he did)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The dead in Christ rise at the Last trump.  Pastor Murray may be right about the rapture, but he is wrong about the dead.  Christ brings the dead with him in the resurrection, they rise and meet him in the air and the living will meet them in the air and join him together in his return to earth.  That is what this says, on the most basic level. 

 

As you can see, I believe there is a lot more explaining to do to get to the idea that the dead are gone to heaven.  The gospel of John says noone has ascended to heaven except Jesus (that brings up # 7 ) Enoch and Elijah, but if everyone goes up to heaven then Elijah and Enoch are not exceptional, but actually normal, this is another one of these things that amount to grasping at straws,  you just can't overthrow the doctrine of the resurrection with anecdotal evidence, Elijah and Enoch were transfigured but since the Gospel says that no one has ascended, it means one of two things, only, either they were only in heaven temporarily and returned to earth to die (it does not say they never died but that they were translated), or they are exceptions to John 3:13, and that is not a huge deal, the exceptions prove the rule, if they were special, then everyone else is normal)

 

And no, I don't believe in near death experiences.  As if Doctors could raise the dead! Can men peek into the realm of God?  Can men cheat death?  If the person was not really going to die, why would God take them half way there?  Is it like "oops!"  "I thought for sure you were going to die, son, but it seems the Doctors have revived you, see you later.".  Near dead is not REALLY DEAD.  The experiences people have near death are DREAMS.  Nothing more.  Because the scriptures say the dead do not know anything, and that is where my philosophy begins.

 

I did not even bring out all the scriptures, but I hope this has answered your question.  I don't set out to confuse anyone, but we get confused when we think one way is right and then people start telling us every which way but loose is right.  But that is how it is.  God hides himself in the darkness of men's ignorance, but here he is, if you can hear him. He led you to Murray and he led you to me, judge our words against each other.

 

my only concern is Luke 16 with Lazarus and the rich man what are your thoughts on that?

 

Subsequent to this conversation I published the following page on the subject of Death and the Resurrection of the Dead
http://oraclesofgod.org/doctrine/03_the_resurrection_of_the_dead.htm

Yes indeed, I did partially answer it above, Lazarus and the right man is a parable about how the Scribes and Pharisees would not listen to Moses and the prophets, and that they would not listen even after Christ had risen from the dead.  The parable was not meant to be instructional on the nature of death.  The parable is ironic, because I already quoted what the Prophets said about death:

 

Psalm 88:10 Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. (obviously not denying resurrection but rather showing the powerlessness of the dead)
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,
Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

But the Pharisees taught something different about death.  I wrote a short paper on Lazarus and the right man which I really need to update and add to my website but I will give it to you here with a little helpful editing:

 

Lazarus and the Rich Man

Many people think that the Parable of "Lazarus and the Rich Man" is a true story. It is not, it is a parable about false doctrine. 

 

Lazarus and the Rich man is a parable that should not be taken literally.  There are many reasons for this:
The first is context,

 

Luke 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

 

This is a parable, Jesus uses the exact same formula to start in about Lazarus.

 

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day"</b>
That "There was a certain..." is a formula for a parable.

 

The next problem with this parable being literal is the fact that it is so completely  untrue.  It is literally filled with things which contradict the scriptures.  I believe that this is part of Jesus point.  The things which are being said are actually Jewish traditions, contrary to the Law of Moses and the Prophets.

 

Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish

 

That is pretty clear, there is more

 

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: </b>
That is pretty clear too.

 

Eccles 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

I think the idea that the dead are unconscious is accurate and clear.  (Obviously, the resurrection is the Elephant in the room here, Solomon is ignoring that possibility)

 

If they were not then why would Jesus say this?

 

John 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I don't think that day has come just yet so the dead are in their "graves." Not "with Abraham" or in his "Bosom."

 

Today, the popular view of death is that people make a transition from one plane of existence to another at death, I don't see that taught in the bible.  I used to think otherwise, but I have come to acknowledge that the scriptures teach that the dead sleep a dreamless sleep.  There is supposed to be a resurrection of the dead, if the transition was true then the resurrection is unnecessary or superfluous since the real person would have left for heaven long ago. It is really the error of Hymaneaus and Philetus:

 

2Timothy 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

I already know some objections that are going to come and I'll address one now.

 

"What about the thief on the cross?" Most of you probably know that punctuation in the bible is an entirely subjective affair, the Greek being without punctuation.  So one may read "I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise," or instead,  it might really mean this, "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise."

 

I would also add that Jesus did not go to Paradise that day, but he went into the grave/hell as the scriptures declare.  (His soul was not left in hell.  Acts 2) When he rose the third day he declared to Mary Magdalene "I have not yet ascended to my Father." I'd like to point out that I have listed several very clear scriptures in support of a real and dead death.  It seems to me that when something like Lazarus or The thief on the cross contradict this clear teaching, that the latter must be interpreted in light of the former because there is much more evidence on the side of my view and the evidence is more solid and the passages doctrinal in nature.

 

Back to Lazarus: the near context of the parable is this:
"Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. 19 There was a certain rich man,"

 

In the matter of adultery the Pharasees had accepted a corrupt interpretation of the law, granting divorces very liberally.  In the matter of the disposition of the dead, the Pharisees had corrupted what was written in the O.T. because of their traditions. Lightfoot did an analysis of the Pharisee's traditions from their own history and this parable matches them perfectly.  When speaking of one who was recently departed they would say, "he sits today in Abraham's Bosom."  It is nonsense. The keystone of the parable is:

 

"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." The Pharisees were always corrupting what the scripture said by their traditions, this parable is filled with them.

 

Some other things that are wrong with this story are the idea that those in "hell" can communicate with those in "heaven" it cannot be so.  For the final disposition of the lost is like this:

 

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

That would be some Paradise, people begging for water while you watch them burn. That is the paradise of the Pharisee's false doctrine. A paradise created by corrupt men. Speaking of death they would say, "this day he sits in Abraham's Bosom."  Lightfoot Works vol xii pp159-163

 

The parable of Lazarus is about false doctrine and the parable of Lazarus is a story based on false doctrine.  The lord has used this parable to hide the truth from many people, if that is one of the purposes of parables, this one is very effective. 

 

 also I notice that you have cut ties with that church you originally talked to me about.. may I ask why?

 

I have meant to write on that subject.  I didn't have to leave, but the ministry could not hear  me so I had to move on.  Yesterday someone from that church emailed me.  I never explained to anyone except the ministry and my immediate family why I left (four years later this is being published for the first time 2013).  It had to do with certain things that were coming out of the pulpit, but I left because they could not hear me.

 

In my opinion, defining the answers to questions like, "on what day was Jesus crucified?"   "how old is the earth?"  "how long was Jesus Ministry?"  and "how long was Jesus hair?" have no place in the ministry.  And it was not central to the ministry at Spirit of Truth Church, by any means, but these subjects would come up and I tolerated it, because they are not important questions, but it irked me that these subjects were being placed on the same platform as the doctrines I loved.  Eventually, one of the elders went overboard and preached a message on calendars.  I could not contain myself any longer and told the ministry what I thought.  My words against the elder were received. But when I applied the same principle to the other pet doctrines which were in the ministry, it was not well received.

 

1Cor 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

 

This passage is about eating things sacrificed to idols, but it is about more than that.  It is about KNOWLEDGE.  Consider this rewording of the verse.

 

1Cor 8:8 (according to Paul Stingini)  But (this) knowledge commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we know, are we the better; neither, if we know not, are we the worse.

 

God is not impressed with our knowledge.  He will not pat us on the back for figuring out what day he was crucified.  We will not recommend ourselves to his favor if we figure out how old the earth really is.  There may be a true age of the earth, but knowledge of this fact will neither help me nor hurt me with God, because God is not interested in how smart I am.  That is what 1 Cor 8 is all about, when we think we know something and the DAMAGE we can do to others.

 

What if someone who believes Jesus had long hair came into our church and our minister is mocking the idea?  What if someone who is an atheist comes in and they believe the earth is millions of years old and our preacher is saying that the bible says it is six thousand years old?  Are we comfortable with someone stumbling over that?  (I am not) Or conversely, what if someone believes the earth is 6000 years old and we are preaching 6 billion?  Is that our GOSPEL?  Is that what we want people storming out of our church over?  Great news everyone, Jesus was crucified..........on Wednesday!"   Is that going to be why people reject us? I want to be the savor of death only when it is for the sake of the true knowledge of God.

 

2Cor 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. 

I do not want to do this!

 

1Cor 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

 

That is what the knowledge that "puffs up" does.  This is exactly the kind of knowledge the Shepherd's Chapel makes its trade in, and you can see the fruit of all that puffing on my letters page.  (And more is coming)

 

I refuse anything except the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and all that doctrine that  he and his Apostles taught, the doctrine is godly and that leads us to godliness and the powerful knowledge that leads to salvation and true enlightenment.  Not all knowledge is equal, and not all that is true is the TRUTH. 

 

1Cor 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

 

There is a verse to take heed to.

 

On thing you said in one of your emails to somebody is that you no longer study.. is that true? should we not study the Word of God?

It is true, I do not study, I teach others.  Be reason of time I ought to be a teacher, but not only by reason of time but also of experience and gifts.  I don't say that NO ONE should study.  I'm just saying that I don't practice the art of bible study.  Everything I do is output.  Not that I have stopped learning, no indeed,  the learning finds me out.  I have done my studying and am approved, I can work without shame.  Everyone has to grow up, and some day you too will be done studying.  What?  Do I shock people because I am not "ever studying?"  If we have come to the knowledge of the truth we do not need to be fake about it.  I do not study my bible anymore, I use it every single day, I meditate on it, I eat and drink it, but I don't sit around gathering information about the scriptures, I know them, not as well as I would like to know them, true,  but well enough that study is no longer required, I need REVELATION, not study.  There are people who have studied the bible more and better than me, but truth is revealed not MINED.   It is all right there, but somehow we keep missing it.   I seek revelation.  I've done my studying.

 

sorry for all the questions and thank you for your time

 

Not at all, you are as the person of Christ to me, If you ask me a question I must give an answer.

 

I know that most ministers will not take time to answer people, and aside from the Shepherd's Chapel questions, this has become a part of what the Lord has called me to. 

 

Sincerely,

Paul Stringini

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