A Discussion of The Shepherd's Chapel Pastor Arnold Murray, the Serpent Seed, the Resurrection of the Dead, Predestination, Preexistence, and Kenites with Paul Stringini

Hello again Bob,

This one took some time,

You are amending your philosophy and your doctrine as we progress here (they were made to be taken and destroyed (unless there be some that were made to be redeemed from that corruption). It is all good). I am not criticizing so don't take it as such.

Its ok I don't take it like that, what it is, is that you are having trouble understanding me, and it is not surprising, because sometimes I don't do a good job expressing what I mean. What I'm alluding to by that statement is the fact that we all start off as sinners, (i.e.. sometimes wheat looks like tare while it is growing), so even a child molester can be saved, and that if they do become saved I am affirming that their redemption was also predestined. God has ordained that we should all be subject to sins for a time. (Ref The Apostle Paul)

Tit3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and whom he wills he hardens" Those are FACTS

I was acknowledging the fact that even though all adulterers will burn in the lake of fire, that, of course, is excepting those who are washed. The Apostle Paul is a Good example, his persecution of the church was as preordained as his conversion. As was the crucifixion of Christ. He was going to be crucified, regardless of his will, or of man's will. It was the will of God.

What you are saying is that the parents of that child would have cause to hate God. Then it was Gods plan to allow this child to be raped and murdered so that the parents could hate God. Then you could turn around and say that the child was a tare and was created for destruction.Its all good

That may be so, some people do end up hating God after those sort of things happen, some do not, both reactions are foreordained and part of God's plan. The child might be a tare, the child might be wheat, there is no way for me to tell, but one does not attain eternal life just by having bad things happen to them. It does not give someone a free ride.

Look at what happened in Job, God gave Satan authority and power to have all Job's children killed, God did not seem troubled at all that a bunch of people were just killed to make his point. It might look bad to man, but God does what he does and is just.

I do not see how it makes things "better" if we were to believe that God "just allows" such things, but does not really want them to happen, it makes God look weak and like he is mostly powerless against evil; he also appears to have his hands tied, or even worse, he appears to refuse to help innocent people when he could.

I think it is far better to believe in a God who has ordained it all (and that is the God the Bible declares), because then every death has a purpose, and it all can work for good for those who are the called according to his purpose.

If these events are the creation of wicked men who have essentially created themselves (self-made men, not in flesh, but in essence) and evil angels who have created themselves and God is just standing by... I don't know, maybe you have not thought about it much, but God looks like pretty impotent like that.

It would be natural for you to say that "they do not create themselves" but if these are not wicked when they were created then how did they go astray? If there was no wickedness in them, how could the temptation be effective? Satan had "iniquity in him" it was there, Satan did not invent evil, or create it. God created evil.

What makes you different from other people? Is it something you created within yourself?

1Cor4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? (Answer: God) and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? (Answer: nothing)

No one, has any cause to "blame" God. He is the potter, we are the clay (all of us) If we do not like what he has made... well...that is just crazy, because God made us. I mean, would we be happy if he had decided to make other people instead? He could have made my parents to have a different baby than me, so even if my fate is to suffer something awful, it does not make sense to blame God, and I pray he keep me and my children safe, but all the souls belong to God, and what he does with us is entirely good. He brought us out of nothing and when it is all over those whom were not ordained to eternal life will return to nothing.

If I am a wicked man, and God has not chosen me, then he is perfectly justified in destroying me, no matter how small my offence towards him, when God made me , he would have known what I was, and what I was capable of doing and whether or nor he would love me. As someone who believes he has received mercy, you did not earn it (neither now and nor in the world that was either), so it is natural for you to want other people to share in the same thing. It just does not work that way.

Have you ever considered why it is that some five year olds find a great deal of pleasure in killing small animals? (Some go on to be serial killers) Where did that come from, did they make it up, God did not make them do it, he made them in order to do it. I hope you can get the distinction.

Are you saying then that every crime committed by man against man is an act of God, that it is Gods will when a child is raped and brutally murdered . If that where the case then God could never judge let alone condemn that entity. Unless it is as you say that that entity has already been judged. But that can't be because only Satan has been judged and sentenced, and with cause or justification I might add.

What I'm saying is that man is a transgressor from the womb. Not that Man's crimes are acts of God; but that God created men whom he knew would commit crimes and wickedness and then placed them in position to commit them. Adam and Eve already had a desire to lust in them before they sinned. Pharaoh is also a good example.

Rom9:For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

God does not force people to do things that they do not want to do, he may harden a heart, or hide wisdom, he does it as it seems good to him. Look at Job "although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause." God is justified because he defines what Just is, you have to work backward from there, not upward from your own opinions.

There may have been many innocent deaths in the history of the world, but Jesus was the only one who was perfectly innocent, without sin, we certainly agree that his crucifixion was foreordained of God. If the most innocent man ever was killed by wicked men by the word of God then why is it so offensive if less innocent people are killed? When we hear "child raped murdered" we naturally get angry. That is because of our nature as human beings. God hates such things, in fact, he created them to show us how much he hates such things, he is over it all and in control.

"What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:" Rom 9

If God wants to show his wrath, I had rather believe that he is not just lying in wait for one of us to "go bad"

If that where the case then God could never judge let alone condemn that entity.

No, wrong. God does not judge the way men judge. What you are saying is the way man looks at things. God will look at a man and say, "what sort of work is this?" "what did I make?" "A vessel of destruction?" then to destruction he goes. God created them to be destroyed, God is judging what they are by the works they have done, he is not trying to give them a Common Law trial according to our justice system. Whoever fulfills the works that cause destruction is going to be destroyed. That is how it is judged. (more is on the way)

But that can't be because only Satan has been judged and sentenced, and with cause or justification I might add.

It is not just stretching it to say that the text of John 17 ("none of them is lost but the son of perdition") indicates that the only soul in the whole universe that is judged and sentenced is Satan.

It is more than a stretch, and it can't reach, for one, the "them" is referring to "Those who you gave me," and that would not be everyone in the whole world and it certainly would not include Satan (Satan is not included in the group that the Father "gave" the son and none of them was lost except Judas, but that is what he was given for...). Dr. Murray has an odd affection for Judas, because Jesus called him "a devil" and he is also called the son of perdition, the fact that Dr. Murray just denies the obvious and declares the opposite is mysterious enough.. but why in the world did we buy into it? Look:

John 18: 8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: 9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

That is a direct reference back to chapter 17. The ones he did not lose are his disciples, those are the only ones whom the Father gave to Jesus

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (he that believeth not is already condemned)

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Why do Jesus sheep hear Jesus Voice? Is it because they are smarter? Stronger? Wiser? Dumber? Weaker? There is no reason other than the grace and mercy of God, if God has not made us to be hissheep then we just aren't His.

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Those who He gave him are his sheep, all others are excluded.

The prince of this word is judged, no doubt, and so is Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Why even bring this point up again? You never said anything about this scripture:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,

If one dies in unbelief they will definitely burn in hell, they will be destroyed. God has already judged this. Dr. Murray has perverted John 17 to mean something it just does not say.

Pr 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Doesn't that mean something?

Someone has to have already done something to be in danger of judgment,

Sure, but all you have to do is call your brother a fool to be in danger of hellfire, because God knows what is in your heart.

Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

No one is going to burn in hell without wicked works, but you do not understand judgment.

not judgment first then do the crime, it is ridiculous.

Wrong, primarily judgment comes first, Look at the garden: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Judgment first, crime second. Once they ate the fruit God did not have to "ponder their case" their fate was sealed, he did judge it again, and all he did when he judged it the second time was affirm his original judgment and add to their sentence.

If God does not judge things first then, that would be God never saying anything about the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, and then AFTER they ate it giving them his judgment. "Hey Adam, guess what you just ate!"

You don't get it, God knows men, he makes certain men for certain purposes. You are looking at this through eyes which are void of the spirit (Dr. Murray's), you are looking at this the way a man looks at it. God has already judged every work (and I'm going to prove it in a moment here).

And it is not ridiculous, you just have not thought it out.

It just does not make any sense by any stretch of the imagination to say God would judge an entity or if you like a soul before it was created in the flesh..

If you are a potter, and you are a smart potter, and you make a piece-of-crap pot that is not fit to hold water (because it is full of holes) Do you have to pour water into it in order to have cause to judge that it is a piece-of-crap pot? No you don't. You may "give the poor pot a chance" out of mercy, and run water through it, but if you are a smart potter, the result will not be any different, you knew what you made.

Also, if you are a potter, and you are a smart potter, and you want to make a "vessel of dishonor," say, a toilet, before you even begin, you know what you are making, and you do not have to wait until you are finished and have taken a dump in the toilet to determine if it really is a toilet. You know.

Also, if you are a potter, and you are a smart potter, and you want to make a "vessel of wrath" something only fit for destruction, so you form a clay pigeon. You do not have to even put the clay pigeon in the thrower to know, "I made this clay pigeon as a target to shoot at with my gun. You know what you made.

So it is with God. Is he our maker or are we? The potter does not just throw a lump of clay on the spinning wheel, close his eyes and wait to see what is formed. He knows what he is doing the moment he begins, and even before that. Because he is God.

The Potter: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?... vessels of wrath fitted to destruction... vessels of mercy... prepared unto glory,

So far, you deny that God has such power. You keep denying it because, it may be, that you would hate a God that was like that, mostly because you do not understand. Or maybe you were not made to love such a God, so it would be impossible for you to see the truth, let alone love it, because, if that was you, then you could not believe what I'm saying is true, because it would mean that you hated God (and I assume that would be distasteful to you).

Isa29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Not without a just cause against that soul.

You are applying earthly standards to eternal judgment. God's purpose is just cause enough. If it was made for wrath, it will fulfill all causes for wrath. It will. That is its destiny. The just cause against a "clay pigeon" is "I made it to shoot at it," no further cause is necessary

You are a man, and you look at it like a man, and judge by what "makes sense to you," but to quote an old teacher of mine "God's word is going to come to pass exactly as it is written."

To say that God would do this to these souls (simply because he can because he is God) without justification is insane. God has justification, he does everything in his purpose with justification.

God has a just cause: THEY ARE EVIL, BY NATURE, SO HE KILLS THEM (I'm not yelling, just emphasizing)

I never said that, and I never said he didn't have justification. I just said what the scriptures say (the lord has made all things, even the wicked for the evil day, Romans 9 and the rest), and you have taken issue with that, and said that God is not justified in those scriptures, I do not say it, what you are doing is looking at it the way you want and making a staw-man argument. "Its insane" is your misinterpretation of what I'm bringing out, it is only in your eyes that it is "unjustified" I keep telling you, it is PERFECTLY justified. You just have major problem accepting what the bible says.

God makes what he pleases, he does not take "good souls' and make them do evil, he creates "bad souls" souls that he might otherwise not make, except for the fact that he wants to show wrath, he makes them for the evil day. They are appointed to destruction. TARES. You have failed to understand the parable of the tares. If God did not make tares then tares would not exist, there would be no evil people in the "field". I refer back to my potter analogy.

Even Satan was judged and sentenced with just cause, as the angels that left their first estate and are held in chains unto judgment are so held with just cause, but not yet judged nor sentenced.

Well, you have done a good job of adding assumptions to what the word actually says, why are they held in chains? What are you saying? That they are going to get a chance? What is the point? That God does not have power over the clay? According to you, God can't do what the word says he does. I refer back to the Potter analogy. (which I did not even make up,b but merely extrapolated from)

To say that judgment is a done deal and that the so called judgment at the great white throne judgment is just a formality is not biblical,

I said it is their "formal" judgment. And that is exactly what it is. What do you think is in those BOOKS? They are filed with judgment. Do you think that God is going to come up with some new rules or change the criteria at the white throne? It is already DONE, it is already judged, all the works are judged, their fates are sealed when they die. Adultery is not going to get a "fresh look" at the white throne, If you did it, and the blood of the lamb is not on you, you die. Period.

This is simple and obvious, Dr. Murray's leaven is corrupting your perspective so that you are objecting even to simple and obvious truths.

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. That right there is judgment, it is done

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. That right there is judgment.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Do you think any of that can be changed??? When some one comes to the throne, they will die if their works are evil, that is already judged, and the works that are evil are known, it is not some mystery which will only be revealed at the end.

John 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

John9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. That right there is judgment if that situation did not change they will burn in hell.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

The world was judged at the cross.

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. That right there is judgment

The words that Jesus spoke are what will judge people in the last day, there is not going to be one new thing at the white throne. He is not going to have a common law trial.

neither is judgment the carrying out of sentence

Judgment is judgment, it can mean alot of things, including that, but we know what the righteousness of God says and it will govern the judgment of God, it is not going to be this "new thing" or something different than that which is already written. There are ways in which judgment is not finished, and there are ways in which it is already done. But the standards are totally set.

for even the second resurrection is subject unto judgment at the great white throne judgment.

Even? The second resurrection is the resurrection of judgment. No one else will be there besides those that are to be judged. And the fact that they did not participate in the first resurrection proves that they were also judged before as not being worthy of the first. The rest of the judgment is all written in the books. God is gracious to man that he even allows him to have a final judgment, and the final judgment is for man, not God, I mean that the final judgment is not so God can find out how he is going to judge things. It is so people can know what is written in those books before they die.

He does not want us to be unrighteous towards others ,neither would God be unrighteous ,to bring a soul under judgment without a cause.

How do I know this, because his word says so:

If God created an Adolf Hitler (and he is a vessel of wrath, a clay pigeon) and Adolf Hitler does the works that Adolf Hitler desires to do, God is just in executing judgment on him. If God made a "nice version " of Adolf Hitler, then the Hitler that we know would never have existed (a mantel pigeon, if you will). As soon as God created wicked Adolf Hitler, the judgment of God was set, just like in Eden, If you do this and that then you shall die, Adolf, and Adolf went and did this and that which was his desire.

You talk about souls as if they're like glass jars clear and empty, as if they are unmolded clay; but that is not what a soul is, a soul is a living individual person, a clay vessel already formed, God never forced anyone to be wicked, he created souls that were wicked by nature.(Prov 16:4, Rom9) The works that they fulfill are plenty cause for judgment, but God judges the works first. He hated Esau in the womb, why? Not because of some mythical Satanic Intrigue, but for the fact stated in scripture, he despised his birthright, it was in him , even from the womb, as it is written:

Ps_: 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

They do not want to hear, they did not make that up themselves and man is not the maker of himself. You are like those Isaiah spoke of:

The way we define wicked vessels is by how they hear "Which will not hearken " those who do not listen are vessels of wrath

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

Rom 10 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (But without faith it is impossible to please him: Heb11:6)

1Cor2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

THEY ARE SHUT OUT. He does not want to forgive their sins.

In order for God to insist that we do no unrighteousness in judgment then it would only make sense the he would do no unrighteousness in judgment.

He doesn't. I hope you are beginning to at least understand my perspective.

There is more here to Gods word than meets the eye and what you make it out to be. I know you would say again that I am bringing PM back into the scene

Think about that, "don't believe your eyes, believe Pastor Murray." That just sounds perverted to me.

God does give choice:

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

How does that differ from what I said? YES, He gives us a choice. I said that. But I deny that man has the ability to freely choose one over the other. That is a subtle distinction but it is true.

For one, Romans 7 declares that man is in bondage to sin and often cannot choose to do good, even when he wants to.

Second, the only way to obtain righteousness and eternal life is by the grace and mercy of God, these are not things that I can choose, these are things that only God can choose to give by his grace and mercy.

Why is it that we chose to try to follow Jesus Christ and others never do? It was not the world that was, it is a gift from God , a free gift from him, not something you earned that you might glory in. I can drag out all sorts of scriptures on that. Just do a N.T. word search on chose and grace.

Israel must have loved evil and hated good for they proved that to God time and time again until he got fed up with them and dispersed both Israel and Judah.. all through its history Israel died in its sins.

Yeah, mostly, but not all, there is always a remnant

Isa10:22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

You know Paul just a thought here, most of man has died in his sin literally billions. What percentage of all men that have ever lived or will live will reach eternity .What percentage of the billions that are alive today do you think will see eternity ,seeing the evil that is in the world today,and the evil that has transpired in the past from the beginning. Even the church shortly after the time of Christ to this very day has been corrupted and has been dying in its sin. Is only one third of man going to see eternity?

Isa1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

One third? No, no, no, I think far less than that, maybe about 1/100th of 1%? (which for al of history would be about 1.8 million, and for people alive today it would be about 600,000 which still seems like a lot to me, I took the total population of history to be about 18 billion) But I'm just throwing a number out there, maybe it is more maybe it is less, but a third is way too many.

Maybe 1% is closer to the truth. But that would put the number of redeemed close to the number of angels in rev 5. There are described 10,000 x 10,000 angels around the throne (Rev5) and thousands of thousands to boot, so that is 100 million plus a bunch of thousands more. I would expect that the redeemed would have to be less than the number of angels since they will be subject to us and it would be weird to have more rulers than subjects.

It is not just an arbitrary thing, but just based on the criteria you mentioned, and Rev 5, I would not expect to see 6 billion or even 1 billion people enter eternity.

To me it would seem that not even that many would unless there is hope in the kingdom

We are obviously worlds apart on this issue, you see one third as sadly small, I see it as grotesquely large

For Christ preached the Gospel of the Kingdom, which does not apply to the first resurrection, because spiritually they have already inherited the Kingdom in this age.

Hmmm, well, I'm not going to argue that because I'm not sure what you mean by all of it, surely some of the facts are straight.

It would seem that only 25% of that which was sown fell on fertile soil and would bare fruit.,and then the tares would also be sown amongst it.So after the tares are harvested ,what is left. Don't know if that train of thought is valid ,haven't pursued it. but it was something that crossed my mind.

I have not thought about that for a while, I used to think 1 in 4 too. But now I ask myself: is it really fair to say it was 25%? Jesus said some fell here and some fell there, he never said "one quarter here and one quarter there" So I don't think it is valid to assume that.

There is no precise science available to man in this sort of thing, but Jesus spoke of four kinds of possible places the seeds might fall. He did not really discuss how much of each kind of ground really exists in the world or what percentage of seed is like to fall on that ground.

I mean if you were literally sowing seed it is more likely that 90-95% of the seed would fall on good ground. But that is not how it fell out with Christ's ministry, I think we would agree there.

How do you account for the next verse:

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Good question, that appears to be an exception, this is the question I have to ask myself in the face of such an exception. "Is this exception a strong enough witness to overturn the doctrine as I understand it?"

We have two verses

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him

And Elijah too, because he "went up," which is even stronger than "translated" against John 3 "no man hath ascended". "that he should not see death" is explicit. I do not know that translated means "went to heaven" but then, I ask, if not there, then, where is he?

But If Enoch is an exception then he is the exception that proves the rule. Here is how: Look at what Jesus said, "I have lost none" but then he adds "but" sometimes the but is right there sometimes it isn't (like in John 18 "I have lost none") but if Enoch did ascend into heaven in a spiritual body, and that is a remarkable and unusual thing, then it is reasonable to say that what really makes that a remarkable, unusual thing that happened to Enoch is that BECAUSE everyone else is still in the ground.

If we all immediately made a transition into a spiritual body at death, then none of us would ever really taste of death. (there is also a difference between "see" and "taste" death.) And all of us would be like Enoch except for the carcasses in the ground.

So if I were to believe that all men make a transition at death then not only would John 3:13 be void, but so would Enoch cease from being really unique (and you can throw in Elijah too)

Seeing and tasting death, these are the references. (and they are pretty interesting)

Ps 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Matt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 9:1That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. (misfit verse)

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;

All but one of these verses (misfit verse) confirm what I am about to say, To taste death is to die and rise again, and to see death is to see the fullness of death which is to die and never wake again. That is just my Opinion, but if you look at what Jesus said, "he shall never see death." You have (to think) that (what he said) is what he meant. Because all of Jesus apostles are tasting death, but they will never truly see death because they will rise from the dead. Plus Jesus limits this to "If a man keep my words." When you look at Simon in Luke (the misfit verse), I think the use of "see death" (there) is not really having the fullness of death in mind.

It could be said that Enoch was translated, not that he should never taste death, because everyone tastes it, even Christ tasted death, but death could not hold him, and he never saw it (in its fullness). So what I'm getting at, is that it may be possible that Enoch was translated to avoid the corruption of the world and preserve him from the evil to come: I don't know but....

Isa 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. 2 He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.

And if that is not correct in the case of Enoch then I will presume that the "no man has ascended" statement is assuming that "everyone" knows that Enoch was translated and Elijah was taken up, so they are exceptions, but none of the rest of us have ascended, if we did then Elijah and Enoch are nothing special, and Jesus is not the only one who ascended up to heaven either.

In any case that is how I deal with it. I can accept it at face value. But for Dr. Murray to say that the verse means that "We all have come down from heaven" is just a terrible perversion.

That verse can be simplified, this is one of the simple facts that can be derived from this verse, "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but the Son of man which is in heaven" that verse teaches that fact. Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:

I think (to sit at the right hand of God) is missing in that verse.

I left it out on purpose to emphasize the bare naked facts of the thing. (the absence of that phrase had no impact on the meaning of the included portions of the verse)

Sincerely,

Paul Stringini

Paul you misquoted me, in the statement ( It appears that salvation is not a done deal and that one can have their name struck from the book of life ,as the following verses indicate , that is not to say that the work of salvation has not been done.),you left out the word work,and you did that on purpose. Christ did the work,but the following verses. state that action on the recipient of salvation is required in regards to my statement of the Book Of Life being a work in progress

I would not do that on purpose, certainly not to mischaracterize what you said, that would not serve me very well, really, I'm just always hastily answering you (which is not the way I would really have it) but the truth is that I misread your sentence, so when I restated it I restated it wrongly. Sorry 'bout that.

Christ did the work, but the following verses. state that action on the recipient of salvation is required in regards to my statement of the Book Of Life being a work in progress

Regardless of the verses, I don't deny that we must fulfill things in order to obtain salvation, that fact is independent of the fact that we are predestinated. we were not predestinated to sit on our hands, then we would wind up in the lake of fire.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book

Add a couple more LOL

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

1 Cor 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1 Cor 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

None of that is in opposition to what Romans 9 plainly says, and to what I am saying. Sometimes people assume that if predestination is absolute then we should "not do anything."

I don't get it.

I might accept your statement but I am still not convinced (Since the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world, the statement that their names were written there before the world began indicates that their names are there permanently, because they were written there in the purposes of God, long before anything was.) But that is a very small remnant compared to all of mankind. I am sure that the pos. elect are of the first resurrection but I am not sure that there are any elect chosen from the foundations of the world during the millennium. Christ's priests (teachers) and kings (rulers) will already have been chosen. They are the first fruits.

Fine, I was only supposing anyway, I look at Romans 9 and I take it for what it is. if it seems to cause problems it just means I have more to learn, but what it comes down to for me is the nature of the God I serve.

I am adding here what I wrote earlier out of sequence

You have given me some food for thought, there are truths you have brought forth which I have denied simply because of my stubbornness. Though I did not realize it at the time I do now. You have told me time and again that I don't listen, yet I have been. I think that maybe you need to step back and look again and perk the ears.

Ok. That happened to me too.

I agree with you that God has elect chosen from the foundations of the world ,ordained for destruction and salvation but the rest have not been ordained for either destruction or salvation,which means their names are not written in the book of life.The bible also states that a persons name can be stricken from the book of life as the following verses indicate.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Just because God created good and evil it is not his will that any man should commit evil other then his negative elect. That is not to say that he would not do any tweaking when tweaking was required for the completion of his plan during the course of events to both negative and positive elect and that is what intervention is all about

I guess the difference is that I see only two camps, the "negative elect" and the elect. Just like in the parable of the tares, I do not believe that there is a third group who are going to "evolve" (sorry, I can't resist) into wheat. It is not in the parable, it is not in the potters clay, there is no "self-determining clay." The references to the book of life only provide minor difficulties for this view.

Notice also that action is required on the holder of that name to maintain or loose their name in regard to the book of life.

It is possible that the book of life includes everyone who has ever lived and that only those who were foreordained will be blotted out. This does not mean that the elect do not have to fulfill the works. Salvation requires works, the basis on which one is chosen for salvation is grace/election, but salvation itself is the fulfillment of the works which God has ordained that his elect will do. (I.e. believe the gospel, be baptized, fulfill righteousness, etc.)

Now you have told me a number of times that Arnold has applied his brand of doctrine to Gods word requiring the use of imagination. Making up things that are just not stated in Gods word.Now I am not trying to defend Arnold but imagination is one of the tools God gave us to come to the understanding of many things, and one of those is faith. How could you possibly have faith without using imagination to figure it out. Even the understanding of ordination from the foundation of the world requires the use of imagination on the part of the beholder of that information.

To some degree that is true, but it is one thing to use the mind to try to figure out something that is written, like the way I expanded on the potter's clay, but one has to stick to the analogy as it is given in the word. There is a boundary that I can't cross, the stuff I'm saying about the book of life is supposition, but I can't take that very far or I will be outside of the knowledge that God has given. My problem with Dr. Murray is that he goes way beyond what is written with his doctrines

2 Cor10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

His doctrines exalt themselves against the knowledge of God, I really think that the teaching of the Kenites and the World that Was Doctrine (standing against Satan and all that) really are textbook fulfillments of imaginations which exalt themselves against the knowledge of God.

In the same sense that Arnolds doctrine has added to Gods word your doctrine has denied some of Gods word.

I really don't think so or see so.

You have told me several times that I must listen and believe what Gods words say, so I am going to try and do that.I will not philosophys but use the word verbatim.Neither add to it nor take away from it.

The following verses say that all men can have salvation through Christ ,I do not see any exceptions in these verses nor any implication of exceptions. The operative word being can have salvation, not shall have salvation.

Cool, I've been waiting for this.

1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

to them gave he power ,What does that mean? Would that imply the bestowing of some sort of self determination.?even to them that believe on his name: received him after the opening of the eyes and ears.

Hey, Don't forget the rest of John 1, especially verse 13

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. " Very important.

So that Group of people are definitely not determining their own way.

"after the opening of the eyes and ears."

And just how does that come about? Do the blind give themselves sight? Do the deaf stand up and say "I will myself to hear!" and hear?

In any case, there is an important and significant difference between "all men" and "every man"

As you are aware, in the old testament God dealt with mankind through a single family, because of his promise to one man, Abraham. Salvation was "of the Jews." In the new testament there is a very important change. Salvation is opened up to all men, men of every race in the world. This is a major theme of the new testament so it is mentioned frequently. It is not always stipulated because it was well understood. From the teaching of Jesus, the parables, the Prophets, The Apostles, it is clear that God has never intended that "every man" might believe, but that "all men" might hear the Gospel and that those he as chosen will hear him.

John 10:15... I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (a reference to the bringing in of the Gentiles)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

There are things which characterize Jesus' "sheep" ...They hear him, they follow him, if they are "not his sheep" then they "cannot hear," not, "will not hear," but cannot.

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

You and I dig into the word but what about those that have a simple belief in Christ.Who believe as little children do,I am sure you can understand that concept as you have children.who trust in you..

I trust God it is his doctrine, they are his souls, the fact is that God knows us from the womb, not every child is the Angel that people want to make them out to be. As far as "simple faith" goes, I know people who have simple faith, but it is not just an empty shell-of-a-Jesus they believe in, there is always some sort of doctrine. There are all kinds of people with simple faith; simple faith in the catholic church, simple faith in my church, simple faith in Dr. Murray. I don't have a problem with simple faith, but if our simple faith is placed in false doctrine we will not fulfill the works which pertain to salvation and we will not inherit eternal life.

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

People act like these are universal statements but they are not, they are very exclusive. Only those who believe in Christ are included, all others are excluded and not everyone can believe (because they are not his sheep, that fact alone proves that those statements are not meant in the sense of every separate individual, and that is not "imagination" it is interpretation).

I should include that if one adds false doctrine to their faith then their faith is no longer simple and no longer in Christ.

This is something I wrote for my church website earlier this year:

"Faith Alone?" - January 8, 2008

Recently, someone said this to me, "Faith pleases God and is what justifies man in Gods eyes...period." But the only place in the bible where the words "faith" and "alone" occur in the same sentence is James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

But the former statement is dogma to most Christians. In fact, I was being critical of a minister, and this was the retort given in his defense. "You can't criticize so-and-so; he teaches salvation by faith alone; he is a true Christian preacher." No, he is not.

It was Martin Luther who first formulated the idea of justification by faith alone, well, perhaps not. The Apostle James seemed to be writing against the same heresy when he wrote James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Luther was known to hate the book of James. Why would anyone follow someone who hated the writings of a known Apostle, who walked with Christ?

So am I suggesting that we are saved by our works? Not in the way you might think Where people get confused is because the Apostle Paul has said that, no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Gal 3:24

The works of the law are not the kinds of works James was talking about. James was pointing out that faith does something to people, it makes them do things. Whether it be to offer up one's only son as a burnt offering, or to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, faith has an effect on the faithful to make them do the things that faith is dictating.

Where people fail is when they believe that they can "accept the Lord" as a solitary act of faith (which is itself a work anyway) and that that work alone, simply placing ones faith in Christ, fulfills everything required for salvation. BUT IT DOES NOT.

"The just shall live by faith." A solitary act of faith does not constitute "living by" faith. Faith goes from faith to faith, which means that one act of faith leads to another act of faith; and faith increases, because we keep having faith; but not only that, our LIVING faith leads us to do more and more things (works) which vitalize our faith and keep it alive.

Because, if your faith is dead, so is your salvation. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." "For without faith," I say, LIVING FAITH, "it is impossible to please God." (Hebrews11:6) Do you suppose that dead faith can please God? I didn't think so.

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

It is not like just "anyone" can hear the words of Jesus, people assume that, but this, again is very exclusive terminology.

And again, "the world" refers to all the different kinds of men in the world not every single person in the world.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Again "all men" means Jews and Gentiles, Greeks and Barbarians, Men and Women, Bond and Free, Small and Great.. If it does not mean that then we have to throw out a whole set of scriptures which clearly teach predestination.

Plus there is plenty of precedent in the scripture for such an interpretation. here is one example:

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great

All men does not necessarily mean "every single person." When you consider the context of the New Testament it is not a far stretch to understand that the Apostles were referring to the new fact that the Gospel would now be preached to the gentiles i.e.. the whole world.

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Acts 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Isn't that funny? God is not far from any of us, but only some of us are able (perhaps) to "feel after" him. We see here the distinction of "All nations" verses "every one of us." It is implied here that some cannot feel after the Lord.

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

What is this that God winked at,does that mean he does not condemn a man who is under ignorance?

Ok, so, what is he winking at? It said that God winked at a particular ignorance, "Idolatry." That is very specific, God does not give people who are ignorant and idolatrous a pass when they sin with regards to things their conscience knows are wrong. Even idolaters know that it is a sin to murder, etc. Even if they are ignorant with regard to who God really is, they are not ignorant with regard to the knowledge of good and evil. So they may still be judged on that basis.

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Well, if you misread that statement then it will not be true. Not everyone is "assured" that Jesus is risen from the dead. God has given assurance, but that does not mean that the assurance has been received. He gave assurance but not all men have seen the evidence. It exists for all to see, but not all have seen it. I'm not really sure where you were going with that.

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Is a free gift for the taking by all men or is there a restriction on it? other than the requirement to overcome.

All men have equal opportunity at salvation ,God in his word declares it.

Certainly there is a restriction on it; I reference what Jesus said in John 10. Also, "Many are called but few are chosen." There is a definite restriction, only some are able to actually receive the gospel, but there is no restriction on to whom the Gospel may be preached, there is simply no human way to tell wheat from tare. Jesus Christ's Sacrifice is sufficient to cover the sins of every single person in the world. But his blood is not going to cover every single person, many will perish in their sins. The gospel is preached to many people whom the Lord knows will reject it and to those who are unworthy.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

The Gospel offer is made to all men and is preached as available to all men. But there are things in men which will keep them from ever entering in.

Luke13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

The next verse includes tares,wheat and elect both pos.and neg. by the offence of one judgment and by the righteousness of one the free gift

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Does "the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" mean that every single man actually has justification and is justified? No. What it means is that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was universal but it does not mean that all those people can be saved or that election is now out the window. I really do not see how this verse would change things with regard to the wheat and the tares and with regard to all the scriptures I have already brought out.

Are we clay or not? Does God create the wicked for the evil day or not? Are people disobedient by appointment or not? Does God blind people or not? Does God make vessels of wrath or do vessels of wrath create themselves? Does this verse mean that a tare can evolve into wheat (or just that the tares can hear the same gospel the wheat do?)?

Are you suggesting that because of these verses, that the verses which clearly teach these things are to be interpreted in some other light? At some point one has to determine when, to interpret what, in which way.

If you took "the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" one way, you could say that it means that all men are going to be saved. But all it really says is that the gift "came upon" all men (preached not actually given), and "the phrase "all men" again indicates all "kinds" of men. This is a major theme of the New Testament that the Gospel is not just offered to Jews anymore.

Acts:13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

There are plenty of examples which show that "all men" is not the same as "every man" Here are some interesting uses of the phrase (from all sides of the argument) Please look at each and think about it.

Ro16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. (every man in the world??)

Matt19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. (Here it is probably universal, but in the negative)
Matt10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: ( I don't think he meant every single person absolutely)

Mark1:37 And when they had found him, they said unto him, All men seek for thee (every single person in the world?)

Mark 5:20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel. (In Japan? no, just those who heard)

Mark11:32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.

Lu6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. (interesting)
John1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 2:23, 24 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, (interesting because it is universal, but negative, he is not committing himself to people who actually believe in his name, why? because he "knows" them, tares? Some no doubt)

John3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. (Not the Pharisees, not Herod, clearly not universal)

John11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. (Obviously they do not mean to include themselves or the Romans or even dream of "every single person in the whole wide world")

John12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (Does he mean every single person or "Jews and Gentiles"?)

John13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. (at least all who see it)

Acts2:And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. (universal within the group, excluding those with no need)

Acts4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done. (I think some of these fall into the category of something like "everyone thinks your hair is too long" or something like that, they probably are not literal not intended to be taken as such)

Acts21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. (this is a great example of what I have been saying, clearly Paul did not teach every person on the globe, but he did teach "all men" i.e. Jews and Gentile which again was a really big deal at the time.)

There are alot more but maybe you get the idea that the phrase "all men" is not usually intended as a global/universal statement.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Really, you could say that since by Adams sin every single person was made a sinner, so then by Christ's sacrifice was every single person made righteous and the recipient of the grace of God. But that cannot be true to this is not a perfect inverse equation where Adam damns everyone and Jesus redeems everyone. What it is, is that the sacrifice of Christ causes the gospel to be preached to "every creature" even to those who are not meant to receive it.

Rom 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

Every person in the whole world? Even those generations who died in the Jungles of the Amazon and Africa in total isolation?

1 Cor 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1 Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

??? Even so, it does not mean that they are saved in that, just "sanctified" and in what capacity we can only guess.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

You seem to be getting at my point. All men often means circumcision or uncircumcision

In the next set of scriptures don't leave out this one.

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

All men was given in reference to his ministry which loomed large in the mind of this former Pharisee, he was sent to all men, not just the Jews, the apostle Paul uses the phrase "all men" in this sense "all the time." (i.e. a lot)

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Eph 3:13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

1 Tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Does praying for your enemies ring a bell, and what is its purpose?

Ro12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

I pray for my enemies for my own sake, not because God is going to change his mind and decide to save tares.

1 Tim 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1 Tim 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Again, I fail to see how this overturns the notion that God is a potter and we are his clay and that he makes us into whatever pleases him, for destruction or life.

I think you may be reading more into this than what it is simply saying.

Jesus is the ransom for all, all those who will inherit eternal life. God will have all men to be saved, those he has ordain from all nations and all walks of life. God does not respect one nation over another or one kind of person over another, all men from every nation and every walk of life may come.

If god wanted to save "every single person in the whole wide world" then every single person would get saved, because God is powerful and love is powerful, and there is no way God would allow any to perish, if that were the case. But that is not the case, God has ordained and created some to be destroyed.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

There is one name under heaven whereby we must be saved and whether you are a Jew or a Gentile, Jesus is the only savior.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
Titus 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing all meekness unto all men.
Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Again you skipped the lead up to that statement which really gives us the true sense of it, here I will condense the thought to make it clear

Titus2:1-11 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: That the aged men ...The aged women likewise, ... the young women ... their own husbands.... Young men likewise ....thyself... servants...masters... that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (sexes, classes)

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (sexes, classes)

All kinds, Old men, old women, young men, young women, servants, masters, yourself..."all men"

If you Look at what Paul had said to each of those groups you will see it was right in line with what he goes on to say.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

I really do not think he meant every single person but even so, God does give things to the wicked, and those things just end up damning them. And God does hide wisdom (but those people never ask for it , do they?) Conswider that the ability to even be humble enough to ask God for something is itself a gift from God and without it one cannot be saved.

If a persons name is not in the book of life from the foundation of the world ,it can be entered into the book of life through the washing of the blood of Christ and maintained through repentance and at the same time a persons name can be stricken form the book of life through sin and the failure to repent.

If a persons name is not in the book of life from the foundation of the world, I think that their name is written in the book of life as soon as they are alive. It makes sense to me, that way the "blotting out" makes (more) sense too. When your name is blotted out from the book of life it means that you are dead. It is not a "short list" of candidates for salvation, it is the book which lists all the living souls. So I think they way that you are thinking about the book is just wrong. God is the God of the living, if a man dies righteous in the sight of God, though he is dead, his name is not blotted out so he is alive (according to the book), but when the wicked die their names are blotted out and when they rise from the dead for judgment their names are not found. I have formulated this theory in my conversation with you, and I have to say, I really like it.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

If we are to forgive our brother that many times would Christ do any less once a person overcomes.

I do think he would do "less." I'm unclear what you mean by "a person overcomes" But I don't care who someone is, God will not forgive people who do not forgive others, (if ye forgive not men their trespasses neither will your father forgive you) but I have to forgive people who do not forgive me. There are totally different standards for man and God. "To me belongeth vengeance" but I am not allowed. But be assured God will avenge. And he can withhold forgiveness too.

Jesus said "You do not know what spirit you are of" when his disciples wanted to call down fire and destroy a city, People think that because he said that that "calling down fire" is out forever, but we know God will bathe the whole world in fire and also cause blood to flow as deep as a horses bridle.

Yes the tares are ordained from the foundations of the world unto destruction. The elect are ordained for salvation from the foundation of the world yet the word says a persons name can be stricken from the book of life.

Well, if you look at the book of life the way I do then there is no contradiction.

The word says all men will have the opportunity for salvation through Christ.

Not really, not the way that you mean. I have given examples and would be happy to give them again (and more)

I cannot condemn nor justify any.

I do not either, but that does not mean that they are not already condemned or already justified. My ignorance does not negate the absolute truth of election. They are already justified and condemned.

The following is Gods plan:

1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

If that is God's plan, then he is the enemy of his own failure of a plan. He creates people who are not made for that plan and also withholds the wisdom from them that they need in order to partake of that plan, if that is his plan then why does he appoint people to reject and be disobedient to that plan. If that is the plan then why is it such a colossal and complete failure?

2Thes3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith

Rev22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still

That does not mean that all will be saved, but all will have the opportunity. To deny this would imply that God is of two minds. You can put your meaning as to how ordination from the foundation of the world is applied in Gods word, but Gods will is to have all men to be saved and that they come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Rev19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

I see it just the opposite, God's election is absolute, you can have your opinion about how things like 1Tim fits into that, but the clear facts of Romans 9, Eph 1, and the rest absolutely establish very clear facts about how, what, and why God does what he does.

God's will is that all people come to the knowledge of the truth, not discriminating against any race, sex, or class of men, but God has chosen men of all these to salvation.

God's plan is to bring many sons of all men to Glory subjecting them to sin and redeeming them from it. His sons are defined by selection (those he has selected) the rest are blinded and fitted for destruction.

Again I see no exceptions.

Neither do I, election is absolute. Otherwise God is just an indecisive muddler. And he is not. The statements which you are relying on are not as strong as the ones I am relying on. You are interpreting stronger scriptures by weaker ones, which is error.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (having done nothing good or evil)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (it is common for people to believe so when they hear this doctrine)

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Basically you are saying that God does elect people, but that he may later realize that he made a mistake, or perhaps used bad judgment. What would it say about God as a creator if someone he created for destruction obtained salvation? Would it not raise the question of whether God had made other mistakes? And that under different circumstances more tares could pull up their bootstraps and become the children of God?

Your position is rooted in the desire of men and in what seems right and desirable for and to men.

God divorced Israel ,and he cannot remarry her without breaking his own law,but all things are now under Christ and Israel shall have an husband in Christ.

??? Ok, do you mean something more beyond that? Like do you deny that the Church is Christ's bride? I don't get it.