Predestination: Is There No Way to Change Your Predicament?

Question/Comment: 

----- Original Message -----

From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

To: Paul Stringini

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:31 AM

Subject: salvation by works

Hi Paul

Hoping you can clarify something for me? Your statement below makes it sound like there is no way to change your predicament. If that is true why are you wasting your time? Why am I wasting my time reading it? I screwed a slut in high school so I am going to hell. Might as well just buy a bag of crack and a harem of hookers and enjoy my ride there. Am I missing something? (p.s. like your metal music!) (p.s.s. absolutely not looking for a Murray/Shepherd’s chapel debate, I have no firm opinion in that department).

 Thanks for your time

XXXXX

Statement - The Bible gives its own reason why God chooses His Elect. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil (not any in this world or any world before it!), that the purpose of God, according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)" Romans 9  The Apostle Paul also said of the election of God, "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy."  Romans 9  The only reason that the elect are chosen is that the purpose of God has purposed it.  People I meet all the time do not like that, but that is what the Bible teaches, God is sovereign over all, period.

My First Response:

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To: XXXXX XXX

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 1:35 PM

Subject: Re: salvation by works

Hello XXXXXX,

 

That is a very reasonable question thanks for taking the time to write it. I did not come into this doctrine from my youth or from training, just from wrestling with the ideas in the scriptures.  I used to have a very different view.  

 

To begin with, to even begin to speak about predestination we have to do something impossible, we have to see the world from God's perspective.  But even though we cannot see the world as he does, the scriptures give us a very stark  and clear outline of God's perspective.

 

Proverbs 16:33  The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

 

I love that, I always hear people quote Einstein, but I never heard anyone mention that Einstein was probably alluding to that proverb (in my opinion).  No, God does not play dice with the Universe. God can't play dice.  As creator of all things, he is the first cause of all things and being aware of all things, and maintaining all things, there are no surprises for God.  That is absolute.

 

Man on the other hand, is not God, man is characterized by impotence and ignorance.  We can play dice.  And even though the outcome is "of the Lord."  From our perspective we either write it off to "luck" or the ambitious might even try to explain the outcome of the dice in terms of angles, friction, statistical probability, and momentum.  What we can only know by careful observation and experience, is known of God on a level we cannot comprehend.

 

I think that is one of the biggest barriers to accepting the idea that God predestinates everything, because we instinctively think it means that we now occupy his perspective, as though the things that are now, are also the things that are destined.  The most common response in the world is to throw our hands in the air and declare that nothing matters anymore.

 

Destiny in not folding our hand and accepting the present as destined for the future.  Destiny is about fulfilling our dreams or realizing our nightmares, destiny must be  revealed to us, even if God already knows it, he has not shared that information with us.  We act but cannot control, but if we act in accordance with the will of God, even being ignorant of his will,  we will be successful.  If not...

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

The question was:  What can we do about "it?" (Our destiny)

 

And the first thing I would say is that being ignorant of our destiny, all we can do is what the scriptures advise, make our calling and election sure.  Destiny is about destinations, I don't think of my current situation as being my final destination, I'm pressing forward to a mark.  Many think of their faith in terms of a one time commitment.  I think this is error,  the Apostles called us to go from faith to faith, from righteousness to righteousness, in other words, continue in the faith and "grow up into" Christ. (you should check out my John videos on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulStringini#p/c/6B33D623415B37B4/0/gbwnbYIdICY)

 

I find this idea codified in 2 Peter 1

 

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

That phrase  "give diligence to make your calling and election sure"

in light of predestination, means that we are assuring ourselves, we are the ones who need assurance.  God does not.

 

So we certainly need to be doing things to improve our situation.  My philosophy is that I'll let that other guy be the one who folds his hands and yields to an evil destiny, I choose rather to believe that God has placed something greater in me, I choose rather to believe that my destiny is in God, and so I act accordingly, and why not?  If my destiny was otherwise, would I incur greater injury for my greater faith?

 

Some would call my zeal and choices a product of freewill,  and I only assent that man is as free willed  as two dice seem to be as they tumble across a table, because everything that is in me is the creation of God.

 

1 Cor 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

 

This is an important verse.  And I think that people forget this, that our choices are products of things that are in us that are beyond our absolute control.  If I am the type of person who is ready to believe the Gospel, it is God who has prepared my heart.  Why has though made me thus?  I am what he made me to be, but he made ME, so I should not complain too loudly if I don't like what he made, the alternative is that he could have skipped making me and gone on to more rewarding work..

 

And I can't get through this without saying this because it is always always always on the tip of peoples tongues.

 

If God is behind it all, then how can God judge man?  "Why doth he yet find fault?"

 

If God was our equal then he could not, but he is not our equal he is our creator.

 

I've said this before and maybe you've read it, but I can't remember where I wrote it before, and wrote it better, but I'll say it again.

 

God is not fair.  God is more than fair to most, and gracious to a few.  God owes no one a living.  See the parable of the workers who worked all for a penny.  "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with that which is my own?  Is your eye evil because I am good?"

 

What can we do to change our situation? 

 

Use every faculty and ability that God gave us to the fullest extent. 

 

What can we do to change our destiny?

 

Absolutely nothing.

 

I hope I made that contrast clear.  Destiny is for God to work.  Man ought to make the most of what he has to reveal a good destiny, because folding your hands and doing nothing will definitely result in an evil destiny, that, we can be sure of.

 

As far as your side questions,  (perhaps these are hypothetical)  If you were a slut in high school, that does not determine your destiny, though it may, if you let it. Yes,  maybe that is your destiny, if you give yourself to it, and your life becomes characterized by it, then you can be sure of it.  But if you rather give yourself to righteousness, then that will be your destiny.  Some people get a better chance than others, you could have been screwing that slut, smoking that crack and had a massive heart attack, and that would have been "Hello Destiny" for you.   But you lived, and so as far as you are concerned, unless you are old and have along track record of absolute obedience to God, you ought to consider your destiny wide open, after all, we don not see ourselves as God sees us, we cannot see out destiny. 

 

I guess my point to you would be that you need to really meditate on these ideas.  It seems like you rely on your own wisdom to tell you what makes sense.  I would advise you to accept that the scriptures are wise and then try to make sense of the world in light of the scriptures.  In other words, yield to the ideas in the bible.  Let them teach you. Men do not savor the things that are of God, we have to acquire the taste.   Anyway, that is just my opinion and advice based on your very short letter.

 

Fell free to ask follow-up questions, this was a good question. I have had to be brief, this was the third email today, I'm not a minister or paid for this (hardly anyone donates either), so I have to get to work.

 

Sincerely,

Paul Stringini

Emailer's First Reply:

----- Original Message -----

From: XXXXXXXXXXXX

To: 'Paul Stringini'

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 2:56 PM

Subject: RE: salvation by works

Thanks for the response Paul!

 My initial query was brief because I did not think you would actually respond (figured you would think I wanted to debate Murray).

 Like you I have beliefs that deviate from the main stream. I believe the ten commandments were written in stone by the finger of God twice so you know those are correct. Everything else was written by men and is about as reliable as men can be. In the end it is hard to even make it through a day just living up to the ten commandments.

 I debate the bible as a way to “watch”, and spend some time thinking about God. It is hard for me to find anyone who will “reason from the scriptures” with an open mind. Most fall back to something someone else told them and say “it is a mystery you can’t understand” or “God has not opened your eyes”. While I do not agree with you, it is obvious you are passionate about God and do your best to try and find the truth.

 I might not have any answers for you, but I definitely have plenty of questions that will give you an opportunity to “defend your faith”. I will get together a well supported case (from the bible of course!) and forward to you.

 Thanks again for your time. Looking forward to some “spirited” debate!

 XXXXXXX

----- Original Message -----

From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

To: 'Paul Stringini'

Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 8:15 AM

Subject: RE: salvation by works

Hi Paul

Sorry it took so long to respond (will spare you personal tale of woe). After much study, prayer and careful deliberation I came to a conclusion that is very interesting. I guess it something I have always had in the back of my mind but never really took the time to consider – there are three “stations” (for lack of a better term) a person can have. There are certainly those that are “evil” and cannot be saved (those destined for destruction), there are those that are “saints” and cannot be lost (those of the first resurrection), and there are those that could go either way.

 The ideas of “saved” and “lost” are great themes throughout the Bible. If there was no possibility of either God would be a fool to waste so much time on them. Obviously, God is not a fool. He is the God of wisdom, reason, and order (as exemplified by the large volume of test devoted to these topics), therefore, the possibility of either has to exist.

The parable of the sower lays this idea out quite clearly (Mar 4:13+, Mat 13:11+, two witnesses so it is probably correct). The seed is scattered randomly, not placed specifically. The seed scattered by the way side is destroyed by Satan, those that are “evil”. The seed on the good ground bears fruit, those that are “saints”. The other two seeds sown had a chance either way. The seed on the stony ground loses their chance. The seed choked by thorns does not lose their chance, they just don’t bear fruit (bear fruit means save others here, not to be confused with those who don’t bear fruit being destroyed elsewhere).

 Would welcome any thoughts you might have. Thanks again for your time.

XXXXXX

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To:  XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 11:38 AM

Subject: Re: salvation by works

Hi XXXXXXX,

 

There are certainly those that are “evil” and cannot be saved (those destined for destruction), there are those that are “saints” and cannot be lost (those of the first resurrection),

 

Ok, we agree up so far.

 

and there are those that could go either way.

When I first started studying the bible, I was taught that there were such, but I was never able tio establish a satisfactory scriptural basis for believing this.  Eventually I discarded the idea.

The ideas of “saved” and “lost” are great themes throughout the Bible.

Agreed.

If there was no possibility of either God would be a fool to waste so much time on them. Obviously, God is not a fool.

Now there I disagree.  Careful not to let your assumptions lead you into staw-man arguments.  Would God really be a fool to expend his time on an outcome that he knew was fixed?  That is a very absolute statement you have made, and you rest much of your argument on its logic.

It is out of our need to understand God through our own eyes that we characterize  behaviors that we do not understand as being  that of a fool.  There are many things we can observe that may seem foolish when we do not understand them.  In our anxiousness to understand God, we are actually quicker to judge things foolish, so that we can reach a conclusion that pleases us all the sooner because men are not patient with understanding God.

One of the great analogies of the bible is that God is the potter and we are the clay.  It is not foolish for the potter to begin his work with a definite product in mind.  And even if the potter is working without predetermination, it is still his hand that guides the creation.

Also, the bible certainly gives us many reasons to believe that God  is entirely in control.  The reasons for taking God out of total  control, I believe, arise mainly from a sort of Philosophical panic that men feel when they try to wrap their minds around the idea that God is totally sovereign. We feel this intense need to get God "off the hook," for things we feel that we do not want him to be held responsible for. 

It is more out of our desire to have God pass OUR JUDGMENT than out of any consideration of what the scriptures teach is the truth.  We are afraid of what we will think of God if we accept him as he portrays himself, and so we lie to ourselves about God and make him as we would like him to be.  We make God acceptable to us and then label that accordingly:

He is the God of wisdom, reason, and order (as exemplified by the large volume of text devoted to these topics),

But is the wisdom, order, and reason of human perception the same as the wisdom, order, and reason that God created and loves?  Might not our wisdom, order, and reason be flawed by the lens of human experience?  There are certainly ample scriptural reasons to think so

1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

It says that the preaching of the cross is foolish to them, if you ever listen to some people talk today about the cross you, can see how Paul was right.  The idea of God sending his son to die for the sin of the world is mocked as stupid and foolish, just look on YouTube.  And they are right, God would have to be a fool to sacrifice his son that whoever would believe on him would not perish.  Now maybe you think you know something more, maybe you are going to start telling me more about the cross and about God, but I would call that proving my point.  What seems foolish to man can have a greater wisdom than man realizes.

therefore, the possibility of either has to exist.

The possibilities of either exist only as a perception of the human mind.  God deemed it good that we should experience life as it is currently experienced.  We know nothing of our destiny (other than that we shall die)  and so God speaks to us in terms of what our destiny may be to provoke us to fulfill our destiny.  Maybe that does not satisfy us (Lord knows, I could try to make a better explanation) But If God knows the end from the beginning, what is that to us?  When I look at Romans 9 I see two types of vessels, for destruction and for mercy, there really is no in between.  Could there be?  Of course, but that is not the world that we exist in. 

There are tares and there are wheat.  There are sheep and there are goats.  I see no in-between from God's perspective. 

From my perspective I see nothing but in-between, I see no sheep or goats, only livestock, I see no wheat or tares, only plants.

The parable of the sower lays this idea out quite clearly (Mar 4:13+, Mat 13:11+, two witnesses so it is probably correct). The seed is scattered randomly, not placed specifically.

The seed is scattered "randomly," somewhat, but the seed is the word of God, not the fate of men,  the fate of men does not lie in the seed but in the soil.  So I think you miss the most important point here.   The soil represents the hearts of men:   "that which was sown in his heart. (matt 13:19)" 

 2Cor 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life.

The fates of men are determined by the type of soil.  The soil is a good or bad place to grow seed because it is either good or bad by its very nature, the sower does not work the soil, the soil cannot change, the soil is what it is and the whole matter of the seed bringing forth fruit is governed by only one factor: soil type. 

The soil represents the hearts of men.  These are the basic points of the parable and I think that you ought to note that in your zeal to prove your point, you misinterpreted the symbols here.

The seed scattered by the way side is destroyed by Satan, those that are “evil”. The seed on the good ground bears fruit, those that are “saints”.

The seed is the word.  Satan is not destroying them, but stealing away the word.  It is fascinating to me, observing that you missed this point.  The soil is the heart, the seed is the word.  I think that has to change your interpretation of this parable.

The other two seeds sown had a chance either way.

The seed is the word.  The soil is the heart. You must study these parables more closely.

The seed on the stony ground loses their chance. The seed choked by thorns does not lose their chance, they just don’t bear fruit

When the seeds were in the bag they all had a chance, because the seeds are identical. And really, as I was alluding to before, "random" is a mistake. 

I have engaged in broadcast sowing of seed, and you aim for the good soil but some happens to bounce here and there.  Imagine that the sower was walking down a road sowing seeds on it, that is a ridiculous image.  The seed is sown at the good ground with some overflow on the surrounding areas, the sower is not trying to waste seed, but to work quickly and cover all of the good ground, you want every inch of the good ground to be used up, what lands on the path lands on the path, but the soweer does not go out and sow among thorns or on stony ground in order to give that ground a chance.

I think people get this image of the sower that misses the way that sowing is actually done.  It is like a distorted stained glass version of the story. 

The seed among thorns or on stony ground only SEEMED to be anything else because of human perception, but the type of soil dictated from the beginning that neither of these types would bear fruit.

In the end the seed does not bare fruit, that is the only point here, there is no difference in the end of the three ill-fated soils.  It is not a parable so much about salvation as it is about how people hear the gospel (and are subsequentially saved, yes). 

 (bear fruit means save others here, not to be confused with those who don’t bear fruit being destroyed elsewhere).

No, saving others is not the meaning of bearing fruit, and I have to say honestly, that I really hate that interpretation.  Bearing fruit is bringing forth the end for which the seed was planted in the first place, the fruit of the word of God, our salvation?  yes, and more than that.

 2Peter1  3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

"Saving others" is not on the list.  It is not the way the apostles though about salvation and fruit.  Yes we desire others to be saved, but that is not a requirement for us to have "brought forth fruit."

Sincerely,

Paul