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"What Kind of Church Would You Suggest?"
Question/Comment:
----- Original Message -----From: Name WithheldTo: <Paul Stringini>Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 3:09 PMWhat kind of church would you suggest? I've been studying with Arnold for years. I long for a church that takes the word serious, and don't teach the rapture. I've only read a little on your web site. I do believe Murray is a great teacher, but sometimes get tired of hearing about Antichrist. What is your opion on the antichrist? Is it going down like he says? The bible never made sense to me till I came across his show. I find it hard to find a church in my area, for my kids and myself to attend, that's teaches the word like he did. Most are all a show, and if you ask them a question they seem like they don't know. I pray about it, I go to different ones, but still I hit walls. Any advise?
Sent from my iPhone
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Stringini"
To: "Name Withheld"
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 6:32 PM
Subject: Re:
Well, finding a church... that is one I gave up on. I don't think that the establishment churches are legitimately carrying out the teachings of Jesus Christ. I understand how you feel about Murray, he does make the bible "make sense" but I think not in an entirely healthy way. When i used to study with him, I thought of Christianity as this intellectual pursuit, quite separate from my personal behavior, I don't know if I really got that from Murray, but Arnold Murray basically gave me what I wanted, which was an intelligible framework in which to interpret the bible. He tells an interesting, plausible story, but I do not believe it is the correct story. He reads into the bible the viewpoint which makes sense to him, we listen to him read that into the bible and it makes sense to us too, because we are also men. There are all kinds of ways you can read plausible interpretations into the bible, that is how we got all the denominations in the first place. I have no denomination to recommend for you, but I will say that if you can find a few good friends to fellowship with in Christ, that is a valuable gift. In church most of the fellowship is actually of the world, I talk about this a lot in my bible studies, I've been to many pot luck Sunday's looking to talk about Christ and the things of God, only to find that many people felt like it was rude to talk church after having endured an hour of it already...
I do tend to see the antichrist in similar terms as Murray, but with some big differences. I do believe antichrist will be a supernatural being from the sky, but I do not believe he is going to be all gentle with everyone. If you are really interested you can listen to my teaching on Revelation.http://oraclesofgod.org/studies/66_Revelation/66_revelation.html
The two witnesses are the two churches, that is another difference. The devil will be killing believers. This is a great honor, and I never liked the way Murray made it seem like it the devil wouldn't hurt us. Our pain will be God's glory. And God will honor us for having suffered for his name sake. If we should see those days. And that is another difference. We are not living in the end times. Murray had this prediction back in 1980 and he had been compensating for it ever since. He never wanted to totally back down and say he was totally wrong. When the end times come, it will not be some secret that only great and powerful preachers know about. (And you are right, he was a great preacher, he preached to millions, of course, that does not make him a "right" preacher) I look for the days when the seas and the waves will roar and men's hearts will be failing them for fear and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth.
My focus in my teaching ministry is not on prophecy. I focus on how I might obtain the things promised in the scriptures for those who believe in Christ. Specifically, I need to learn how I might conform to his image. This is the most practical thing to do with our lives. Whether we live in the end times or not, we are called to be like Christ, so it makes sense to pursue Christ's likeness.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
I want to know how to live soberly, righteously and godly, in this present world, as far as the grace of God will teach me.
You mentioned your kids. I get a lot of questions about that. I base my children's religious upbringing on the upbringing I got. My dad was a man of faith. I have always known that about him. He did not make me pray... He prayed, he read his bible. he never made me memorize verses. But he would quote verses to me (mostly encouraging). I knew it was important to him. He expressed himself. But he never crammed it down my throat. Because I loved and admired my father there was never any question of adopting the faith. I tell people that I have always believed, I cannot remember ever "coming to faith" Sometimes I think about the worst thing you can do is take your kid to church. Faith is meant to be lived, not stuck in a box and force fed down kid's throats. I prefer to exemplify my faith, and when opportunity arrives, I express my faith and counsel them according to the things I have learned of God.
Anyway, If I missed something in your question, feel free to write back, (lol you can tell I'm not going to proofread this)
Feel free to write again, If there is anything I can do, I am at your service,
Sincerely,
Paul Stringini
Ps I do recommend my bible studies, all free, line by line, I try to get at the true depths, to be of service to you in your walk in Christ.
http://oraclesofgod.org/studies/index.htm
----- Original Message -----From: "Name Withheld"To: "Paul Stringini"Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 3:48 PMSubject: Re:Good to hear back from you, and you make a lot of valid points. So I'll give you a brief back ground on me or testimony. Growing up my dad or my mom were never church going, or even Godly parents. I had grandparents that were, so I did hear a little about it. When I was 14 I accepted Jesus in my life, and started going to a Baptist church, and brought my grandmom and serval others in my family to the church. Was baptise with my grandmom, and went strong for a little while. But I didn't stick to it, I feel off and all my friends and I smoked weed drank and chased after girls. Always in the back of my mind and heart I believed but it didn't make a whole lot of since.Till one night flipping through the channels I seen Murry. Now I didn't become a die hard fan, but the guy made since, and taught the bible. This goes on for years, I fall and it's like he's was there to put me back in line. But I've always been told "don't beleive anything you hear and half of what you see". And he kinda says that to, and that's why I'm willing to hear your side. I don't want to be so harden that I only hear one person. But I don't think I would tell someone not to listen to him. I believe it could be a great next step in their belief. And that's something my grandmom told me is that, it's wrong to pull people away from a church they go to.So I don't know. I do agree on your view of antichrist, but I think he will be playing on both sides of the fence! If he can't make you believe he is God he will get rid of you. It's crazy man, I had some really weird dreams that made me want to get back in the Word. And I even order the cd from Murray on dreams, but it really didnt answer my questions. Not till I listen to a rabbi on how to interpret your dreams it made since. It would be something you would have to listen to, but in my dream, it was a big revival and people thought Jesus was here, but he played on people's sins. Like you said, trying to be of a sober mind. And that's what makes me want to stay sober. He came fullley loaded, if he could get you with sins he played on your faith, using your own family and everything in his power. It's all overwhelming at times to think about. And I'm not like other Shepard chapel students, like you said every church will have their flaws. Yes you can learn a lot from them, but at the same time you can harden your heart to others! As far as having friends in Christ, that's hard to come by, the friends I had dont won't to hear it, not even my wife! Yes they believe, but that is far as it goes. So it's hard, and I'll keep praying that one day I'll be with a group of people that I can study with and fellowship with. That's all I can do. When I get time I'll listen to some of your teachings, I'll still have more questions in the future, if that's ok? Can't wait to hear from you, have a bless day!
Sent from my iPhone
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Stringini"
To: "Name Withheld"
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2014 3:54 PM
Subject: Re:
I agree that it would not be right to say "don't listen to him" It would be better to say "really listen to him." There is nothing wrong with "listening" to Arnold Murray teach, recently, I started listening to him again, just to make sure I still understood what he is all about, but, in another sense, we shouldn't just "listen to him." And by that I mean the other meaning for "listen to," the meaning when a parent tells their child, "listen to me!" It implies that we are listening to someone as an authority whose words should be heeded and not questioned. Sometimes it is easy to sit back an let someone else do all our thinking for us. There is a lot of that going round in many circles. The truth is that many people regard taking Murray's word for it, to be the equivalent of "study for yourself."
I could tell from your first message that you weren't like that. So we did not have to start right off with an unpleasant discussion based on personal allegiance. I question many of the teachings of Arnold Murray, but I have found over time that some people see that as a personal attack on Murray. And they come to his defense on a personal level. And those discussions have led me to make some attacks on his character which is not as pearly white as some seem to think. (Such as his claim that he "never begs," they throw that at me when they find out I accept donations, I point out that Murray asks for donations constantly, and if you wanted to interpret "begging" as "asking for donations" then I'd have to say he begs every broadcast.) But none of that means the guy might not communicate some useful information.
It is not exactly Murray's fault, but there is a reverse psychological effect on some people when you say to them "don't trust me" and "check me out." Because he says those words, a lot of people feel they can trust him. So they don't get down and do the dirty work to see if his scholarship stands up to a good challenge. I have always been a bit of a questioner. As I said, I was raised a believer, but I have a natural tendency to agnosticism, so faith has been a struggle for me at times. When I say something about the bible that is supposed to be based on solid textual scholarship, I like to know that I am standing on solid ground. I can't just repeat what Murray told me. I had to confirm it for myself. And not merely by following the breadcrumb trail he left for me to follow. That is what led me away from his teachings. It actually took a long time, I don't know if you read my history, but I started studying with Murray in 1993, started developing doubts at Passover 1995 but I did not come to see him as an enemy until ten years later in 2005. I did n't make the Chapel page until 2007. So it was not this rapid fire decision to officially speak against his teachings.
I think your grandmom's advice is partly true. Just because we disagree with a group of people does not mean the God has appointed us to try to make them break off fellowship from a group they are comfortable with. But that does not mean that there is never a time to make an effort to bring someone out of a situation. Especially when the situation is abusive or clearly unhealthy for their spiritual life. Let's say you have a family member get involved with a very abusive church that starts running their life and making them miserable with guilt, it might be an appropriate time to make a concerted effort to pull them out of there. There is a time for every purpose under heaven. Sometimes you let things be, and quietly speak your mind, sometimes you take a whip to the back of the money changers. The trick is to know in the wisdom of God when each response is appropriate. I could never lay out precise guidelines for that. It is kind of like how, at one point in his ministry, Jesus sent out his disciples without "sword or script" and they lacked nothing, but then at the end of his ministry he tells them, "
Luke 22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Murray always made a big deal about the "scrip" being a bag for collecting money, an how we should not take one. And aside from his own hypocrisy on that, he does not make as much of a point about the scrip when Jesus repeals the command and tells them to take one, and further to sell their clothes to buy weapons.
It is interesting.
I say what I say about Murray, not with the intent to take all his students away from him, but I do if for the people who are already questioning. I get emails from die-hard chapel students, and they try to taunt me, telling me that I'm crazy if I think I'll ever persuade them, but While I always admit that I would like to see them persuaded, I also have to inform them that I did not expect to persuade them. I look to persuade people who want to be persuaded but need information. God is the one pulling all the strings ultimately, So I do not sweat it. My job is to declare the truth as it has been revealed to me, my page on Murray is just a side thing, I've had this website since 1998, and only created the Murray page in 2007. I don't much care for the church up the road either, but I don't really have any history with it either, so I really have very little to say about it. Murray on the other hand was my only bible teacher, he is the one who instructed me initially in the scriptures. I supported him, so I bear some responsibility for him. So I have every right to air my opinions on him. It's just a website after all, noone has to read it.
I think you are on the right track about antichrist. People think that they will stand against Satan just because they know it is him. But I think that they really have no clue how persuasive he can be. And that except that God keep us we should all be deceived by him. I've really sought in my life to clean things up. I've sought and received the Lord's help in this. I used to use drugs and alcohol, it was a big problem for me, but eventually the Lord delivered me with a powerful deliverance. That power to overcome sin, that power to control our own behavior is one of the greatest powers available to us. When Jesus healed that one guy, he said "your sins be forgiven you" because the healing was only a sign to show that the son of man had power over sin. When I was in bondage to drugs and alcohol, Satan would not have had to convince me that he was Jesus, he already had me with the drugs and alcohol, because so long as those sins overpowered my will, I do not see how I could have expected to resist Satan, just because I knew it was wrong. I knew all that stuff was wrong. What sign had God given me that I should dare to expect him to deliver me before such a great and powerful foe? But now I know that the God who delivered me from pot and alcohol will deliver me from all my enemies, because he has been faithful. He rewards us who seek him.
I won't say I did not gain anything from studying with Murray. God put me there for a purpose. I think the most valuable thing he did is helped me get through the bible. That is why I work on doing the same thing, people need someone to explain what they are reading. When you first get into it, it is very overwhelming and someone who is familiar with the book can do a lot to start us on the path to understanding. I mostly have issue with his "deeper teachings" For me the depths of Christ are in obtaining the blessings promised in the scriptures that we might partake of the divine nature and become more Christ-like. I do not see this as something that comes from human effort or from being a really good person. The power to become the sons of God comes from God himself and I pursue that power with the same effort I pursued evil when I had been given over to it.
2 Peter2:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
By God's divine power all things have been given that we might live and be godly, yet all things do not yet appear, we have been called to glory and virtue, but have not yet obtained glory and virtue, so it is necessary that we ought to obtain those things, that we might better serve Christ and that we might fulfill our destiny in Christ.
2 Peter2:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
"Partakers of the divine nature" that is a "deeper level" that I am very interested in.2 Peter2:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2 Peter2:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2 Peter2:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2 Peter2:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.We have to add to our faith. As Paul said "from faith to faith" Murray's big focus is on knowledge. But the knowledge he offers is not particularly useful. I want the knowledge that men cannot teach me. Lord's teach me how that a man might live Godly, because no man can teach me that.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
It is not that God is unsure of your calling an election, he is the one who elects us after all. It is because I am not sure of my calling and election. But when I see the works of God happening in me, I do become more sure of my calling and election, because I see the promises of God being fulfilled in me.
We have faith and men say that if you have faith then you are saved, but peter says that we ought to assure ourselves rather when we see all these things abounding in us. It is not that I want people to doubt their salvation, but the guy who had but one talent (and that one talent was almost surely faith alone) and buried it in the earth, had his talent taken away from him. As the man who had no respect for the King and arrived at the wedding having not on a wedding garment. Every one who loves Christ ought to have a desire for the things of God. And that desire comes from God, and he will lead us from faith to virtue, knowledge, temperance, etc. that we might grow up into Christ.
You may write me at any time if you have a question or would like some point clarified, or whatever. I am at your service.
Sincerely,
Paul Stringini
----- Original Message -----From: "Name Withheld"To: "Paul Stringini"Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2014 5:08 PMSubject: Re:I can totally see we're your coming from. I believe our relationship with Christ is a one on one thing, and each individual must find his way, not by following a man or group, but Christ and His teachings. I'll eventually get around at listening to some of your work, right now I'm reading a book that I got from Walmart, call the complete guide of the bible. It's perty cool, and easy reading. You know we're it says not to add or take away from this book? How much do you think has been talking away or added? I watch a video on you tube, called the book of Enoch, by Trey Smith. And led me to another web sit called scriptural-truth. Well on that web site you'll find the books left out and some audio clips and so on. It's been real insightful, one audio was called the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Check it out sometime and tell me what you think? Got to go I'll write back later
Editorial Comment: I felt like I wanted to clarify what I had said, because I did not feel like he was seeing where I was coming from 100%. But I felt like my desire for precision would seem argumentative, so I never got around to responding. I do not recall him getting back to me either.
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