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Questions and Comments from a Newer Shepherd's Chapel Student

This was a very Long and valuable conversation, eventually we got to a question about Murray's claim that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord," you can jump there by clicking here or you may be interested in my major doctrinal examination of death and resurrection.

Question/Comment:

My First Response:

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To: Name Withheld

Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 10:53 AM

Subject: Re: Dr. Arnold Murray

Hi, Thanks for writing.

 

Instead of beating down Pastor Murray, why don't you interpret exactly what the scriptures mean?

 

Instead of jumping to conclusions why didn't you look at my bible studies?  I have line by line bible studies where I explain exactly what the scriptures mean.  And I suppose if you were really interested in exactly what the scriptures mean, you might have noticed the links to my bible studies. http://oraclesofgod.org/studies/studies.html I don't believe you are interested in that, it seems to me that you are just looking for reasons to fault me since you and the rest of the students of the Shepherd's Chapel cult are powerless to defend Pastor Arnold Murray's corrupt doctrines.

 

You read like a politician,  just cut down the other guy and it makes you right. 

 

I have a big site and you are only looking at my "Shepherd's Chapel" section, and that section is not a political race, me against him,  it is a referendum on Pastor Murray alone.  You are judging me politically, the media whine and complain the same way. What you seem to misunderstand is that I'm not running for office and I'm not seeking to justify my own doctrines by cutting Dr. Murray down.  I "cut him down" because he needs to be "cut down."  My only goal on my Shepherd's Chapel page is to cut Dr. Murray to pieces and lay out his guts for the world to see. (figuratively) If anyone wants to know what my interpretation of the scriptures is, then they can listen to my bible studies.  And when I teach the bible I don't talk about the Shepherd's Chapel.  http://oraclesofgod.org/studies/studies.html

 

Your writing is mostly disconnected

 

My writing is mostly in answer to emails like this one.  As far as your opinion of my writing goes I should mention that, unlike Pastor Murray, I have a regular job and a very large young family to support.  So everything I write is hastily written.  I have a much bigger ministry than this section, the fact that I even pay attention to Pastor Murray is pure charity for his students.  I do not have much time or care to craft perfectly executed prose for you all to still find fault with.  And also, I actually take the time to give you people real responses, and I also answer your replies.   Try taking your troubles or complaints to Pastor Murray, see if he writes you like I have written the troubled people who have written me.

 

Also, I notice that you have a "donate" button for our convenience, how interesting!

Well, it seems only my enemies notice the donate button.  I wish you were right, I wish I was getting a nice fat income from this.  That would certainly make dealing with you people worth it.  But you will probably be overjoyed to know that since I put that button up I have not got a single donation.  I suppose it is mostly there as a stumbling block for people like you who have an evil eye.

 

By the way, that is the final analysis.  You have not written me to contend for your faith but rather to reveal your evil eye.  Look that up in your Strong's.

 

Sincerely,

Paul Stringini

Emailer's First Reply:

----- Original Message -----

From: Name Withheld

To: Paul Stringini

Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 5:00 PM

Subject: Re: Dr. Arnold Murray

Thank you for responding.

I am a new listener to Pastor Murray.  I am 72 years old and in all my life, I have never heard any pastor
read and explain like Pastor Murray does.  Out of all the churches I have ever been to, I have not heard a preacher explain like he does.  I am not saying that I believe something just because someone tells me it is so.  I do have a concordance and I can look up things for myself. 

I must apologize to you for writing so harshly.  It is just that I do not like to read bad things about people unless I know that it is true. Things that  are written or said can ruin a person's reputation.  That's all.  I don't know enough about Pastor Murray to defend him, I just know that since I have been listening to him I feel much less confused with the bible teaching and know that our Lord is a forgiving Lord.

I also know  nothing about you, and again I apologize for being accusatory and critical  in my email.  After all,  we are not supposed to judge but I get so tired of trying to listen and watch religious programs when so much of their time is taken up with asking for money, especially when many of them  use religion to make you feel guilty when you can't donate. After all, they are dealing with a person's soul.

 I am like so many of my friends who do not  really know how to understand the bible teachings and we are hungry for the understanding.

Name withheld

My Second Response:

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To: Name Withheld

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 2:07 PM

Subject: Re: Dr. Arnold Murray

Name Withheld,

 

First of all I want to let you know that I was not angry with you, everything I do has to be done in haste, I do not have any free time in my life (and that is fine with me) I am always writing quickly and earnestly, and I am telling people the things that I believe sincerely and from the heart.

 

 I am a new listener to Pastor Murray.  I am 72 years old and in all my life, I have never heard any pastor
read and explain like Pastor Murray does. 

 

I certainly know what it is like to be a new and enthusiastic student.  When I first started studying with Pastor Murray I was 19 years old and very eager.  I wanted to understand the bible and I was very enthusiastic to learn about all of it.  The fact that someone was willing to take me through the bible and explain it to me was just what I was looking for.

 

Out of all the churches I have ever been to, I have not heard a preacher explain like he does. 

 

Now there is a blade with two edges.  When I first began studying the bible before I found the Shepherd's Chapel I couldn't figure out what many things in the bible were talking about ("The Ox knows his owner and the ass his master's crib"..what?)  Pastor Murray certainly explained things in the bible so that I could understand.  But he also taught me some very unusual doctrines.   At the time, I think perhaps I was ready to hear these doctrines because it seemed like since the rest of the bible was being kept secret by most teachers, that it made sense that some very exotic doctrines that were in the bible were also being kept secret by mainstream denominations. 

 

In a way, that is true.  There are secrets in the bible but they are not based on very questionable interpretations such as Pastor Murray uses to establish "what happened in the garden" (the serpent seed), his fanciful story of the elect standing in the "world that was" against Satan,  his race-based doctrines, and the rest.  The secrets in the bible are actually sitting right there for us to read, plain as day.  But the reason they are secrets, and the reason they remain hidden is because we have accepted philosophies which deny the truth, so the truth confuses us and we look for "another explanation."  The hidden truths of the bible are the things that "conventional wisdom"  or "common sense"  say can't be true.  Examples?  Surely.

 

People from the Shepherd's Chapel (and others) are constantly criticizing me for criticizing pastor Murray.  The conventional wisdom being that there is something wicked about bringing forth evidence of false teachings.  Pastor Murray himself teaches that we should not attack any ministry or any minister specifically,  But what does the bible say?

 

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 

 

2Timothy 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. (This is also one of Dr. Murray's false teachings, he teaches that the dead have already risen)

 

The next thing I usually get is: "What give you the right?   Who are you to say Pastor Arnold Murray is wrong?  Who made you judge?"  And There are several answers to that.  Christ told us we would know them by their fruit, so9 we have to use judgment, not our own judgment, but we need to place all teachings in the light of the scripture and let the scriptures speak the judgment.  Also, the question is hypocritical, they tell me I can't judge the ministry of the Shepherd's Chapel, but they are judging mine,  What gives them the right?.

 

Another piece of man's wisdom that clouds the truth is this idea that we cannot have perfect doctrine.  They always come to me in their fake wisdom and say, no one can have uncorrupt doctrine, that is impossible.  Well, according to the scriptures, that is a lie.

 

Titus 2:7 In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, 

I certainly don't know everything, and do not expect to.  But we can all eject from our faith corrupt doctrine.  We can look for it , judge it by the scriptures and eject it.  We just need to be diligent and willing, and we need the Lord's help.

 

I am not saying that I believe something just because someone tells me it is so.  I do have a concordance and I can look up things for myself. 

 

That is very well.  But most of the things you need to look into in the bible are not buried in the definition of single words.  Honestly, Pastor Murray goes on about "one-verse Charlies" but sometimes he is worse, sometimes he is a "one-word Arnold" Focusing on a single word to corrupt the meaning of a larger context.

 

I'm very glad to hear that you are independent minded.  And if you are truly anxious to learn more about the word, consider this scripture.

 

Proverbs 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.

 

You really ought to listen to more teachings than merely Dr. Murray.   As I said, like me or not, I teach the bible chapter by chapter and verse by verse, and for free.  http://oraclesofgod.org/studies/studies.html 

Do not listen, as those with itching ears, to hear what you want to hear.  But listen and judge my words by the word.   Do not listen to teachers as those with "itching ears"  who listen to hear what they like to hear, or listen to hear what seems right to them. 

 

I understand that as people get older they want to feel secure in their beliefs.  I think part of what may have upset you about  me is that I basically represent a threat to the things you are beginning to understand as true, just when you would like to settle these things in your mind.  But I am no threat to the truth,  let my words be judged by the word.

 

Let me tell you.  One of the things about Pastor Murray is that the way he teaches the scripture he is manipulating the evidence in order to make the case for his doctrines.  To some degree everyone must use the evidence.  But do not fall into the trap of looking up the words he tells you to look up and checking out the scriptures he tells you to check out, and considering that sufficient proof. 

When he makes reference to "homework" he is not kidding, because Pastor Murray's teachings are based on a very closely chaperoned tour of the scriptures.  If you become familiar with the scriptures you will find many nagging loose ends, that is what I found, because I was a very diligent student. 

 

The only bible teacher I ever had was Pastor Murray,  and that is the truth, and this is how I turned out, if you don't like what I have become, then perhaps all the more reason to listen to more than that which Pastor Murray is feeding you.  If I am the product of man, then I am his product.

I must apologize to you for writing so harshly.  It is just that I do not like to read bad things about people unless I know that it is true.

 

It is natural to react the way you did.  I do not feel you owe me an apology, but you must see yourself as in debt to the truth to thoroughly examine whether the things you are taught are true.  I gave you a knee-jerk reaction as well and was not very generous.  I don't need an apology from you,  but I do counsel you to listen to my bible studies, there is a different way of going about studying the word than Pastor Murray practices and it wouldn't hurt you to check it out (and it won't cost you anything either).

 

Things that  are written or said can ruin a person's reputation.  That's all. 

 

I understand that. I did not do this without careful consideration, I waited nearly ten years before I said anything against Pastor Murray publicly, no one provoked me to do this, unless it was the Holy Spirit 9as I believe).  You may not realize this but Pastor Murray does not have a very good reputation to begin with.  He teaches that the Jews are the devils literal offspring.  Maybe you have not gotten that far yet, it is not slander, it is just his version of the truth.

 

I teach that God created the wicked intending to destroy them.  To many people that sounds bad and brings me into ill repute.   

 

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

But if I am true, if Pastor Murray is true then reputation should be considered EXPENDABLE and of no worth.  If you really believe Pastor Murray is a man of God, and you were really a good student of the bible, you would rejoice if I was slandering his reputation. 

 

Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

 

Matthew 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

 

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

 

How Happy are you when men shall revile you falsely?  It is worth thinking about.  It is not easy to swallow.   Having a reputation is a luxury that a disciple of Jesus Christ should not expect to possess. He made himself of no reputation, so we shall be of no reputation.  They said all manner of evil against him falsely and they will do the same to us.  Who taught you to expect otherwise?

 

I don't know enough about Pastor Murray to defend him, I just know that since I have been listening to him I feel much less confused with the bible teaching and know that our Lord is a forgiving Lord.

God is forgiving, but he is not all-forgiving.  Right off the bat, I can tell you, and Pastor Murray agrees, that we all have to repent of our sins.  And false doctrine is a sin, and if we do not repent of it we ought not expect God to forgive us. God forgives but we must at least acknowledge our sin.  And he also expects us to turn from it, and he will help us to turn.

 

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

I do not wish to frighten you.  Trust in the Lord and be diligent, take my advice, at least, I do not think I have told you to do anything unusual.   You perceive that you are less confused, and I suppose fear of confusion is why you may avoid listening to me.  Don't be lazy because you are getting older.  Your age is no excuse, you owe a debt, to the truth; to know the truth; because you think you know what it is (or are less confused).  I feel Pastor Murray tells a very good story to explain the world to people, and people like his story, it is very sensible, but it is not BIBLICAL. He uses the bible to support his story, but his story does not actually come from the bible.

 

I have to tell you, confusion arises from resisting the truth.  For instance, if you believe that it is wrong to speak against a false teacher by name (assuming the person really is a false teacher) then you may find the passages in the bible which say otherwise confusing.

 

If you believer the dead are already risen (like most folks) then you may find the following scriptures confusing:

 

 Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

 

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

 

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

The resurrection of the dead is one of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, but most people believe in something else, a transition from one plane of existence to another at death.  That is not what the bible teaches.  But based on what man teaches, people get confused.  Based on their own desires and how they wish things to be, they are confused.  We are confused because we reject the truth and look for teachers who will tell us things that we can accept on our own terms.  People think  God has to make sense to us.  People expect that He has to give an account of himself to us.   People are fools.  We need to submit ourselves to God's wisdom and learn from him, on HIS TERMS, not our own.

 

I also know  nothing about you, and again I apologize for being accusatory and critical  in my email. 

 

It was a light thing, I get far worse all the time.  I hold nothing against you.  I do what I do because of Love.

 

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

 

I rebuked you because you were thinking only of Pastor Murray, and his reputation.  But consider the possibility that I'm right and that everything I'm doing is right.  I do what I do for the sake of the thousands of people who are listening to him.  And if you look at all the emails I get, you will see that not everyone has a nice experience with the Shepherd's Chapel. 

 

After all,  we are not supposed to judge

 

No, wrong, you are supposed to judge.  

 

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

 

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 

 

Judgment ought to be done.  Judge doctrine.  Judge teachings.  I don't judge any man.  Pastor Murray can still repent.  I can still repent. Even if it is unlikely, it is possible, so I can't judge that.  But we need to listen to the judgment of God, and hear it.  We must judge.  Jesus said "judge not that you be not judged"  not "Never, ever, judge anyone or anything"  what he meant is that we are going to be judged by the same standards we apply to other people, so if you don't want to be judged by your own standards then don't judge.  BUT do not be mistaken, the judgment of GOD stands SURE.  IT IS WRITTEN.  God has already judged, we need only listen to know his judgment and his doctrine.   We will not escape the judgment of God.

 

Romans 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

 

I mean, just read Romans 1, the judgment of God is set.  And no one will escape, that is why God sent Christ, but not for us to become hypocrites!

 

You went and judged all those ministries for asking for money, and it is right that they that minister in the gospel should earn a living in it (though I do not).    Pastor Murray only SAYS he does not ask for money, right before he turns around and asks for money.  Don't believe me?  Between his programs what do they always show?  Advertising.  Buy this bible study, buy that bible study.  He asks for money every single day:  Not directly. A fifty dollar donation, a sixty dollar donation.  Unless they changed their format, then tell me it isn't true and I will stand corrected.  He is a peddler like them ALL.  I will say you can download all my studies for free (and my songs, did you know I write bible music?  I not only teach them but I sing the scriptures word for word) http://oraclesofgod.org

 

but I get so tired of trying to listen and watch religious programs when so much of their time is taken up with asking for money, especially when many of them  use religion to make you feel guilty when you can't donate.

 

Pastor Murray is a little more subtle about it.  While he will  never ask for money in a direct appeal, he certainly does mention that God's elect support the ministry that feeds them. And he will close the program saying "If this ministry has blessed you, then help us keep bringing it to you. "  He makes it clear that he "prunes early" meaning that if a broadcast area does not carry its own weight in supporting the ministry that the broadcast will be taken away.  And what is wrong with all that (and more) that he says?  It matters because he is a hypocrite, he says he does not talk about money but if you listen carefully he is just hiding all his money talk.  He judges others and does the same thing.  "I'll never beg" and then he begs "Help us keep bringing this ministry to you." " We are brought to you by your tithes and offerings."  Does he not teach  people to tithe? (I do not) He is talking out of both sides of his mouth.  He and his sons have grown RICH from the ministry but he deceives people because HE does not take a salary for teaching, but he sure does profit from the ministry, that is a fact.

 

I don't grudge him asking for support for his ministry, a true ministry ought to be supported, we are do have a duty to support what we believe, but he makes others sinners for doing the same things he does, except that they are not as clever as he does.   Just because he does it with a smooth tongue and contradiction, people let him get away with it.

 

Listen to him yourself, does he not ask for money?  Does he not have a CATALOG, How much for that book of Luke? You can wait for it to show on TV,  sure, but that is not the point.  I sent him thousands of dollars (and I do not regret it, because I believed in the ministry.   But He does ask for money (and what is begging but asking for something to be given). The only difference is that you like his style.  Smooth talk.  That is what it is.  Smooth talk.  We like the sound, but hear not the words.

 

I don't think I have ever even talked about this on my website before now.  For good or ill, you provoked it.  Remember this scripture:

 

2Cor 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life.

If the truth makes people perish, God still smells a sweet savor.  Many  upset Shepherd's Chapel students could save themselves an ulcer or two if they would remember that.

 

After all, they are dealing with a person's soul. 

 

I trust God with men's souls.  Remember that last scripture.  And this one:

 

Proverbs 16:4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

The wicked are God's too.  And God will destroy them.  Confusing?  You can either shut your eyes and sleep, or take my advice.   Dr. Murray's explanations may relieve you of your feelings of confusion, but they also relieve you of the truth. 

 I am like so many of my friends who do not  really know how to understand the bible teachings and we are hungry for the understanding.

Ok, so you are hungry, Instead of listening to me be critical of Pastor Murray, I suggest you try my bible studies, I do not talk about him and I don't talk about his doctrines either, I teach what the bible says you may find that what I say is not confusing but enlightening.  I do have many things in common with Pastor Murray's teachings, I do not believe in the rapture, or eternal torture, ...that may be all there is.  

 

 

Someone recently wrote me this:

 

Hi Paul,

I wanted to let you know how much I have enjoyed your audio bible study chapter by chapter.  I have it on iTunes so I can listen in my car and on my computer.  You have a gift for teaching!  I am a former Shepherd Chapel listener and have stopped listening to them and have been studying with your audios.  I did notice that you have not added to this audio library for awhile.  Are you going to pick it back up?  I am really anxious to hear more of your teachings, especially when it comes to Revelation and some of the old books of the bible.  I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Thank you for what you are doing in helping people understand God's word.

 

 

That Lady was initially hostile as well.  Maybe you will feel the same after listening too, If your loyalty is to God then you owe it to the truth to see whether the things I'm saying are true or not. 

 

Sincerely,

Paul Stringini

Emailer's Second Reply:

----- Original Message -----

From: Name Withheld

To: Paul Stringini

Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 5:37 PM

Subject: Re: Dr. Arnold Murray

Paul Stringini

Thank you for your response.  Believe me I want to do God's will and I want to learn the truth.  Through his grace, I will continue to search for the truth.  You are right, most of us like to hear things that fit into what is comfortable for us.  I am not blind to that fact.  I will take your advice and go on your website. 

One question, what does the verse- absent from the body is to be present with the Lord- mean?

As far as judging another is concerned I agree with what you wrote.  We certainly should judge if we know something that is being taught
is incorrect.  We are capable of using common sense and can judge right from wrong, and the person who is teaching it.

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

Name Withheld

My Third Response:

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To: Name Withheld

Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 2:11 PM

Subject: Re: Dr. Arnold Murray

One question, what does the verse- absent from the body is to be present with the Lord- mean?

For a detailed explanation of this verse see my article on

Certainly, The verse you are referring to does not contain the phrase "is to be."  When it is repeated and repeated to you like that, eventually, you begin to think that those words are in the bible. I call this "conditioning."  But the bible does not say, "to be absent form the body is to be present with the Lord." And more importantly, neither does it say that "to be absent" is "to be dead." (Which is your conditioned assumption) Here is what it actually says:

 

2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

 Paul says that while we are at home in the body we are not present with the Lord (v6).   In v7 he says that we are willing to be absent from the body, and present with the Lord.  Paul is expressing our desire to be with the Lord in the resurrection. 

 

The passage does not say that "absent from the body" equals death.  But that is precisely the assumption that people are making, but it is totally wrong.  Why is that assumption being made?  The bible never says that death is absence from the body, any where. 

 

What we really have here is reading of the modern philosophy back into the bible.  People today believe that when you die, you leave your body, so they assume that when Paul says "absent from the body"  he meant death, But Paul did not mean that, he never meant that, because Paul believed that death was like sleep (as I will show).  People are just reading their own assumptions back into the bible. The resurrection is the ONLY event that gives us our new body and makes the old body dissolve.  The bible always speaks of the dead as being in their bodies (as I will show). 

 

Paul started out this chapter (2Cor 5) with this verse:

 

2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

 

Paul uses the word "dissolved"  because he means something other than death.  It is not death he is talking about, but the blessing of God on those who believe, the resurrection.  In death, the body does not dissolve. It decomposes, but that is not dissolution.  Look that word up in your Strong's, it means disintegration.

 

Let us look at the bigger context:

 

2Cor 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

That all goes together, it is about the resurrection, not about death, so add in the other verses too.

 

2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2Cor:5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

 

What does it mean to be unclothed?   It must mean to be without a body entirely. Here is our model: When Jesus died, it says he "gave up the ghost"  but it was written of him that he was buried and that "his souls was not left in hell" and Jesus did not "ascend to his father" until after the resurrection.  Jesus went into the grave, that is where the person Jesus was for three days, this is central to Christianity.  He did not ascend to heaven as a disembodied spirit, or in any way.  Though the spirit retruns to God, the person, the man Jesus, David, etc.  are dead and buried.  The spirit is not the person, the spirit is the life from God.  Are we absent from the body in death?  No.  "To be absent from the body" is not death. The bible never speaks of the dead as being absent from the body, the dead are in their bodies, the bible teaches that the way out of the body is to be clothed upon with something else in the resurrection. 

 

Paul was also speaking hypothetically of being "unclothed"  what he was saying is that what we have in God is not merely flesh and bone and that if you took all this away we would still have something, something glorious, heavenly.  We obtain that in the resurrection and we are willing rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, because that is the promise of the resurrection.

 

Also we can't take something like this out of the context of everything Paul taught. 

 

Why does he always speak of death as sleep if it is NOTHING like sleep, but more like waking?  That is a good question.

 

Paul said that those who say the dead have already risen have erred.

 

2 Timothy 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

That right there is important because whatever we want to say, the context here is this:

 

2Cor 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

If the dead are in heaven then it is not by resurrection, but by some other means (unless you wish to openly join Hymenaeus and Philetus, which would be the honest thing for these teachers to do).  What would that be called?  How about the Transition?  But the bible talks about Death and Resurrection.  Not Death, Transition, and Rresurrection.  The dead are spoken of as "asleep"   Jesus is our model, the day he died, he did not go to paradise, he went to "hell" the grave.   He was there three days.  He is the first born of the dead, the first to rise.  everyone else is going to go through the same experience except that we will see corruption, but God will raise us up as he raised Jesus up.  And no man has ascended into heaven, but he that came down from heaven, the son of man which is in heaven. This is the very HEART of Christianity.  All the corruption over the doctrine of the resurrection is one of the worst things going on these days in Christianity  as far as doctrine goes.  Rapture, transitions, nonsense. 

 

I know there are a few passages that people use to cast doubt on the truth about the resurrection, 1) 2 Cor 5 (to be absent...etc.) is one,  2) the thief on the cross (a case of bad puntuation, Jesus did not go to paradise on that day, he made a promise "I say to you today, you wil be with me in Paradise)  3) The Parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the subject is not "where the dead are" but how the pharasees had corrupted the law of moses and the prophets, I have written extensively on this, this is a parable, a Jewish fable, the story is not meant to communicate how things really worki in the resurrection but rather the story is mocking the doctrine of the Pharisees who created the idea of "Abraham's bosom" and other unbiblical "Jewish fables" contained in the parable)  4)  The souls under the Altar, in revelation John sees visions of the dead, but these visions are phophetic and apocalyptic in nature, not doctrinal, screaming under the altar does not sound like heaven, it is a vision, not intended to overthrow the doctrine of the resurrection.  5) "and the spirit returns to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes) This is doctrinal but we have the example of Christ, he "gave up the ghost" and his spirit returned to God, but "his soul was not left in hell"  he was buried for three days.  The spirit is not the man.

 

I have gone over these in detail in writng and in my bible studies.  None of those passages (except 2Cor 5) are really about the resurrection, and 2 Cor 5 is not about death (as is Eccles 12). Some are parts of a narrative, a vision, a parable, that is not very strong evidence.  The passages that speak of resurrection and death in a doctrinal context, are actually very clear and all in agreement. 

 

Here is another thing to consider.  Ok, so there are about 5 passages that have to be dealt with from the other (popular) point of view, but really I would throw out #1 ( 2Cor 5 ) and #5 (Ecclesiastes) because they are not really problematic, the other three require some explanation and some people might rightly feel like there is some big interpreting going on.  But what is the alternative?  How many passages have to be explained with big interpreting if we try to adopt the POPULAR view?

 

Let's See...

 

Psalm 88:10 Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. (obviously not denying resurrection but rather showing the powerlessness of the dead)
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Death is the land of forgetfulness.  It is like dreamless sleep.  Terrible and beautiful.  Cruel and Merciful.

 

Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

If the dead do not sleep how do we explain this?

 

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

 

If the dead do not sleep how do we explain that?

 

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

 

Why does Isaiah say this if none of it is true?  If the dead do not dwell in the dust?

 

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

That is the idea.

 

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

 

"When they shall rise"?  Is he saying they have not already risen?

 

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If they are not in their graves, then how will they hear him?

 

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

...31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

...34 For David is not ascended into the heavens:

 

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

These passages are very different from the passages used to object to the ideas contained in them.  These passages are about doctrine.  They are meant to communicate the facts about death and resurrection.  Death and resurrection are the subject of these passages.

 

1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

Why does Paul talk about the dead like this if death is nothing like sleep?  If we say it is because he is speaking only from the perspective of the living then I would have to  say that the living usually refer to them as "GONE." Not sleeping.  And if they are really "gone" but appear only to be sleeping to us, then why does Paul shoose this word "sleep."  Because Paul knows they are going to RISE, not "COME BACK,"  but they are going to RISE.  So the word sleep is used because whether the living are looking at it, or the dead are looking at it death is like sleep, Paul means to communicate that death is a temporary state and that the dead are not gone, they will rise.

 

Matt 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. (Why not say, "Fear not, she is with the Father in heaven, I will call her back." Is Jesus trying to confuse us?)

 

Mark 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
40 And they laughed him to scorn.   (Why not say, "She is in a better place.  Let's rejoiice for her."?)

 

Luke 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.  (Why not say, "Bless the Transition.  She has crossed over.")

 

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

John 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (This is what the Old testament taught, and Christ affirmed this truth)
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (he died)

 

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: (if he was in heaven how would he see corruption?)

 

1Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (But they say that none of us sleep, they say that we are gone)

 

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (by raising them from the dead, like he did)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (preceed) them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The dead in Christ rise at the Last trump.  Pastor Murray may be right about the rapture, but he is wrong about the dead.  Christ brings the dead with him in the resurrection, they rise and meet him in the air and the living will meet them in the air and join him together in his return to earth.  That is what this says, on the most basic level. 

 

As you can see, I believe there is a lot more explaining to do to get to the idea that the dead are gone to heaven.  The gospel of John says noone has ascended to heaven except Jesus (that brings up # 7 ) Enoch and Elijah, but if everyone goes up to heaven then Elijah and Enoch are not exceptional, but actually normal, this is another one of these things that amount to grasping at straws,  you just can't overthow the doctrine of the resurrection with anecdotal evidence, Elijah and Enoch were transfigured but since the Gospel says that no one has ascended, it means one of two things, only, either they were only in heaven temporarily and returned to earth to die (it does not say they never died but that they were translated), or they are exceptions to John 3:13, and that is not a huge deal, the exceptions prove the rule, if they were special, then everyone else is normal)

 

And no, I don't believe in near death experiences.  As if Doctors could raise the dead! Can men peek into the realm of God?  Can men cheat death?  If the person was not really going to die, why would God take them half way there?  Is it like "oops!"  "I thought for sure you were going to die, son, but it seems the Doctors have revived you, see you later.".  Near dead is not REALLY DEAD.  The experiences people have near death are DREAMS.  Nothing more.  Because the scriptures say the dead do not know anything, and that is where my philosophy begins.

 

I did not even bring out all the scriptures, but I hope this has answered your question.  I don't set out to confuse anyone, but we get confused when we think one way is right and then people start telling us every which way but loose is right.  But that is how it is.  God hides himself in the darkness of men's ignorance, but here he is, if you can hear him. He led you to Murray and he led you to me, judge our words against each other.

 

 

Sincerely,

Paul Stringini

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