"Pastor Murray will not speak specifically against nor take questions
condemning other religions or religious leaders. That alone puts him way
above you."
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stringini
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January
21, 2011 1:09 PM
Subject: Re:
discouraging studying God's Word
XXXXX,
Thanks for taking the time to write.
Pastor Murray
will not speak specifically against nor take questions condemning other
religions or religious leaders. That alone puts him way above you.
Above ME? Dr. Murray
places himself above the Apostle Paul and
Christ when he teaches that it is wrong to
declare false religions and teachers to be what they are, and to do it
specifically, by name. It is very convenient
for him to make criticizing people a sin, but it is not a biblical
doctrine.
You demonstrate clearly that you are not a student of the
bible. You are a student of the wisdom and personal opinions and
feelings of Dr. Arnold Murray (and of your own opinions and feelings).
If you were able to "study for yourself" and making a practice of that,
you would have realized that Dr. Murray is making up his own rules.
Refusing to speak specifically against a false religious leader is
selfish and
irresponsible. Not noble or righteous. You have been duped.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself
approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly
dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more
ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is
Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is
past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
The Apostle Paul certainly had no problem speaking
specifically against false teachers. If you were a student of the bible
instead of a student of Dr. Murray, you might realize that. But you
interpret the bible in light of what Arnold Murray says instead of
checking what Arnold Murray says by the light of the bible. It is
amazing that Dr. Murray is guilty of the same heresy as these two,
teaching that the dead are already risen.
2Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith
did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I
pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
Aside from these, the bible is filled with the specific
names of people whose ideas or actions were worthy of condemnation, such
as, Simon (Acts 8), and Elymas the Sorcerer (Acts 13).
The bible teaches that it is proper
to label false teachers.
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren,
mark them which cause divisions and offences
contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own
belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the
simple.
Mark them, that means that you need to let others know
who they are. I am following the teachings of the Apostrles of Jesus
Christ, you are following the traditions of Arnold Murray.
Heresy is sin and when you see someone sinning it is
HATRED to say nothing.
Leviticus 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine
heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin
upon him.
Rebuke thy neighbor. You like to practice that on
me. And that is the right thing to do, so I commend you for standing up
for what you believe in and rebuking me.
Why would "a little ant like" you think yourself
so worthy to condemn the teaching of one who goes thru the Bible passage
by passage, word by word?
Well, what I meant is that to Dr. Murray I am no more
than a little ant, but this was in reference to his worldly power and
stature among men. He has that great big satellite dish and tens of
thousands of followers, all I have is this little old webpage, I am
nothing to him. The point was that if he paid attention to me, it would
be making more of me, and he wouldn't want to do that. That wouldn't be
prudent.
But to answer your question, what makes me worthy to
condemn Arnold Murray's teachings? (and I thank you for not saying I
condemn him personally, because I do not)
I go through the bible passage by passage, word by word and I discovered
something that irresponsible and lazy students have missed. Pastor
Murray does not teach the bible, he teaches an interpretation of the
bible that is not based on sound doctrine. His method is to seduce the
hearts of simple folks that have no biblical training.
He flatters them and tells them they are special because they accept his
strange teachings. He substitutes the wisdom of men (common sense) for
the wisdom taught by the bible. He teaches the traditions of men (Satan
had intercourse with eve) instead of the traditions taught by the bible
(the fruit was good to eat, the tree grew from the ground, etc.)
Through a variety of practices and techniques, Dr. Murray conditions the
minds of those that hear him to believe doctrines that are not taught by
the bible, but are the traditions of men. He masks this with flattery,
voluntary humility, and thinly veiled self-promotion. "Don't listen to
this man or any other man" is truly a good idea, (when practiced) but
it really serves more to increase the amount of trust people place in
Arnold Murray. I checked out Dr. Murray and found him to be a false
teacher, that is what he told me to do, so why are his student angry at
me, yet unable to defend their doctrines or the teacher that gave them
to them?
2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many,
which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in
the sight of God speak we in Christ.
Do you not think that those who listen to Pastor
Murray can discern for themselves whether his interpretation is correct?
No. They cannot. If they could then they would. I
have people write me and say "thank you, keep up the good work." They
also write "I almost made a colossal mistake." People who are new to
the bible are not equipped to judge a false teacher, the false teacher
is holding all the cards.
When a false teacher is teaching you how to recognize a false teacher,
your ability to recognize false teachings is SEVERLY handicapped.
Because the false teacher indoctrinates you in false teachings and those
false teachings become your baseline on which you judge the truth.
It took me ten years to fully get Dr. Murrays teachings out of my mind.
Once false doctrine takes hold, the victim may not even know that they
are captive to it (that would be you) They can't free themselves, only
God can help them, and that is why he sends men of God like me to stand
against false teachers like Dr. Murray. I make no apologies for what I
do, people THANK ME for doing it, why would I listen to someone who
cannot discern false teachings?
He not only reads the Bible and gives the meaning
of words in Hebrew and Greek (which one can check out for themselves)
but he points out, in God's Word, the meaning of what he is teaching.
He actually uses your ignorance of Hebrew and Greek to
corrupt the meaning of scripture. I have run into plenty of Chapel
student who misunderstand how Strong's Concordance works (that is
Murray's doing), but of course, like you, they think they know what they
are doing, and a few have made fools of themselves on that one.
If you are confident of yourself on that account, then I'd like offer
you a challenge to prove whether or not Shepherd's Chapel students have
learned to study for themselves, or have actually been crippled in their
studies from being taught how to use tools the wrong way.
If you look at all my emails you will notice something.
God has given me the victory every time. There is none among the
student of Dr. Murray with "a mouth and wisdom" that can stand against
me. Again and again, Shepherd's Chapel Students are better at insults
and accusations than at showing themselves approved, workmen that need
not to be ashamed.
There are no emails that I refuse to publish, but I have
had embarrassed Chapel Students demand that their embarrassing failures
not be posted to my website. That says a lot, and as a testimony to my
sincerity, I always abide by their wishes, even though I may have spent
hours writing them. Because Even if it is just for the student, and
even if they are a coward whose foolish talk cannot stand the light of
day, I still took the time, even if it ended up doing nothing but
rebuking one person.
He has brought the Bible to life for me and I'll
be eternally grateful.
He brought it to life, but by a strange spirit. There are
all kinds of people out there bringing the bible to life in one way or
the other, but maybe it did not need to be "brought to life." The bible
has a life of its own, people read the bible for themselves and are
confused or unable to understand, but that is because God has closed
their eyes. I remember when God finally opened my eyes. I see how that
I couldn't understand the bible because I had all this false doctrine
that I was trying to make fit in to the bible.
False teachers are experts at making false doctrine fit
into the bible and they animate the bible with their corrupt ideas, but
if you could have read the bible for yourself at the beginning, you
wouldn't have needed Murray to be a puppeteer for God's word, and the
reason you cannot read it for yourself even now is that you cannot
comprehend the bible outside of the template of false doctrine Dr.
Murray has given you and your mind has been conditioned to accept.
You judge every idea in the bible by the doctrine you have received from
Dr. Murray, his ideas color you every interpretation, because he is
your teacher, but he has not taught you the bible, rather he has
taught you his particular way of interpreting the bible (which happens
to be highly corrupt) The actual teachings of the bible are still
strange to you. I can tell because you repeat his philosophy and wisdom
and it is solidly wedged in you mind.
Before I found Shepherd's Chapel, I was so
confused that I almost gave up on "religion".
These two sentences are very interesting.
Never did I give up on God, just man made
religion.
I know this is not what you meant to say but what you
have said it this: "The Shepherd's Chapel restored my faith in man-made
religion." And that is the TRUTH. That is what it did.
Your confusion then, and now, results from your
preference for relying on men to teach you. Even when you would try to
read the bible you were relying on the teachings you received from men
to make sense of what you read.
I don't take every word Pastor Murray says as
gospel..... I think for myself and do my homework.
That is what they all say, but he is your
teacher and he assigns the homework. How about doing independent
study? Or why don't you try my bible studies? I teach the bible line
by line too,
http://oraclesofgod.org/studies/studies.html
If you had really been studying the bible
you never would have wrote me telling me how wrong I was for criticizing
Dr. Murray. You didn't learn that doctrine from the bible. I proved
that. So you either got it from Pastor Murray and accepted it based on
his word, or, more likely, you accepted it because he said so AND it
"seemed right to you." But certainly not because the bible said so, and
certainly not because you "check him out in God's word and "did your
homework."
You ought to be ashamed. You have not done your homework for God, you
did the work Arnold Murray assigned you, you looked up the words he told
you to look up, you proved the doctrines he gave you the proof for. You
followed the bread crumb trail he left for you, is there any wonder you
reached the same conclusions he did???? You are the blind lead by the
blind, so I say open your eyes and look where you are going.
Shame on you, Paul. God forgive you for
trying to turn away people who are studying God's Word and seeking the
Truth.
God forgive you for trying to turn
me from my duty, God forgive you for neglecting his word, God forgive
you for believing and defending a false teacher.
P.S. Bet this message won't
make your webpage.
What makes you think I wouldn't want to publish this letter? This
letter will definitely be published. Your letter represents another
example the kind of Biblical scholarship practiced by students of
Arnold Murray and the Shepherd's Chapel. This was a great letter.
Thanks for this letter. Please send me another letter.
Sincerely,
Paul Stringini
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stringini
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: discouraging studying God's Word
XXXXX,
You seem to forget something, it is not my
ministry that is on trial here. Most people come to this site to read
what I have to say about Dr. Murray, make their own judgment, and act on
that. You cherry picked my letter for the points you felt illustrated
that I'm not a good person, but most people are not reading my webpage
to see what kind of a person I am, they are reading it for information
on the ministry of the Shepherd's Chapel and Arnold Murray.
Paul. You do not know me, for if you did you would not have made
this statement.
I don't need to know you. Because I am not judging you, I'm judging
your FRUIT. It is very simple. You wrote me a letter telling me what
is right and what is wrong. That is the fruit of your studies, the word
of your mouth. Don't you think that everyone who reads this second
letter will notice that you have absolutely nothing to say in defense of
your original premise (its wrong to call out false teachers)
I have certainly noticed.
I have been studying for myself for many years and way before I
listened to or ever heard of Shepherd's Chapel.
I have no doubt that you have been studying for many years, Ever
studying, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. I have
no respect for you or your studying, because the fruit of your study is
a corrupt doctrine that you didn't even have the guts to defend, because
it is indefensible.
Why is your "interpretation" any more valid than mine?
Simple. My doctrine was based on
scriptures: "of whom is Hymenaeus and
Philetus" Your opinion was not even an
interpretation, it did not involve scripture so it could not even
rightly be called an interpretation, you will have to find some
scriptures to support you claim before you can even call it an
"interpretation."
You gave me an opinion based on ignorance, not an interpretation. The
interpretations of someone who gives opinions based on ignorance are
less valid than the interpretations of those who carefully form opinions
based on scripture. Maybe if you had given me an opinion that was based
on scripture, we would have started out different, but what you gave me
was what it was. that would be your fault for making a bad first
impression.
God gives understanding and wisdom to those who seek it.
How do you even know what wisdom is that you would seek it? Do you just
seek something called wisdom? How does one look for something that he
does not know the shape of? How do you know you have not been seeking
folly and just calling it wisdom? The wisdom of man is foolish to God.
How do you even know that what you seek is wisdom? And when you find it
how will you know for certain that it is what you think it is? I only
say all that to make the point that unless God gives it to us; we might
just be chasing the wind.
1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,
and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and
unto the Greeks foolishness;
They sought wisdom, but found foolishness, because they did not seek the
true wisdom. I don't know you, but you are not wise, that is your
fruit.
You certainly cannot believe that you are the only one who can
interpret His Word or that you alone are capable of understanding all of
God's wisdom and revelations.
Of course I don't believe that. What? Do you think I'm like some
cliché movie villain or something?
You might want to check out what God says about humility.
Thanks for the tip.
And you, Paul Stringini, let others learn for themselves without
giving your interpretation, right?
I never said that "interpreting" was wrong. I said that Dr.
Murray teaches an interpretation that is not based on sound doctrine.
So, in light of what I actually said, your comment is ridiculous. Is
this wisdom?
Why is YOUR interpretation of God's word any more worthy than
mine or Pastor Murray's?
Easy. I have one example to work with here. The only doctrine we have
discussed is Pastor Murray's doctrine saying "it is wrong to name false
teachers." My interpretation is worth more than yours because it was
based on scripture. Far from defending your doctrine; all you seem to
be able to do now is try to throw doubt on the ability of anyone to be
able to discern the truth. I see many of Pastor Murray's students turn
out like this.
And don't
think for one minute that just because I listen to Pastor Murray read
and explain the passages, that I take every word of his as gospel.
We disagree on some
things.
I'll take your word, but you took this
doctrine as gospel, you certainly preached it to me.
"Pastor Murray will not speak
specifically against nor take questions condemning other religions or
religious leaders. That alone puts him way above you."
Where did you learn that in the bible? If you are such a diligent bible
student then how come you failed to notice that this was not based on
the bible?
Don't you believe that God can give
revelation and understanding to those who are in
His Word?
Of course I do, that is where I get my doctrine. But listening to Dr.
Murray is not the same as being in the word, he corrupts the scriptures
with his false doctrines. He does not teach the scriptures. He uses
the scriptures to teach. I have demonstrated this fact over and over on
my website.
The beliefs that I have, I've had since before I ever heard of
Shepherd's Chapel or Pastor Murray.
That does not make them more sound.
I never believed that the original sin, which caused so much
havoc, was an act of a talking snake deceiving Adam and Eve into eating
the forbidden apple.
The bible says "fruit." That would be a special kind of fruit because
it grew on a special kind of tree, it would definitely not be an apple.
But it would be a fruit that could be eaten and grew on a tree that grew
from the ground. If you do not believe what the bible says, then you
are not a student of the bible, but a student of a satanic fringe
religion that uses the bible to lend its fables credibility.
I thought you said you knew something about
humility, because to take the attitude that you do towards the
BIBLICAL ACCOUNT of the sin in the garden is very
arrogant. You are arrogant towards the text of the bible, you
don't believe that nonsense that is written in the bible about "fruit"
and "trees" and "serpents" not you. Your attitude is sickening.
Nor did I ever believe in the Rapture.
Good for you. Neither do I. But I wonder if you believe in the
resurrection of the dead? I hated the rapture, I believed it as a kid,
but I hated it anyways, that is probably why I started listening to Dr.
Murray, but there are a lot of people who teach against the rapture.
And Dr. Murray goes too far, and says the dead have already risen, which
makes him an overthrower of faith as defined by the Apostle Paul in the
scripture I quoted in my first reply to you.
I could go on
for pages listing the things that I heard from childhood for which no
one could give a definitive, clear answer. I just could not believe it.
I felt like it was just between God and me.
I don't know what to say to that.
So please
don't talk down to me and tell me I cannot decide and discern for myself
what is TRUTH!!!!!
You say that you can decide and discern but you have demonstrated that
you do not do what you say. So what can I say? I
cannot respect you.
Oh please, can't you hear yourself? So you are a man of God and
I'm not and Pastor Murray's not, etc.
If we were all men of God we would speak the same things and have
concord. So we cannot all be men of God. I speak that which was given
to me, make what you want of it.
You are setting yourself up as God, judging and condemning and
calling what other's have been given by God as "false teaching".
That is ridiculous. God does not speak out of both sides of his
mouth. Then what makes Dr. Murray better than the Rapture teachers?
What gives him the right to say the rapture is false doctrine? Where
does this foolish talk end?
Jesus Christ told us we would know them by their fruits. We
must judge doctrine. You certainly do.
It is not "setting oneself up as God" to do what I do, and I'd like you
to bring forth one scripture to back yourself up.
You are not a student of the bible, not a
good one anyway, for a diligent student of the bible would never say
something so utterly FALSE. You do not know what you are talking
about. I am nearly beside myself marveling at what you just said. If
you are a, "student of the bible," you deserve a big fat, " F
- ."
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous
judgment.
Matt 23:23 ...the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and
faith: these ought ye to have done,
Judgment ought to be done. Because you exercise bad judgment, you fault
me for my good judgment.
Good grief.
You said it.
You don't even know me, but you attack my intelligence and my
understanding.
I don't need to know you, I only need examples of your intelligence and
understanding. I do not think it is your intellect that is lacking,
however, it is your understanding is that is faulty.
(Editorial comment: I Never mentioned or
questioned this persons intelligence, I questioned their diligence and
the wisdom of their words)
No, Paul, it is you who is making a FOOL of yourself.
Nonsense.
I'm standing against you, Paul. You won't change my mind
That is not what I meant. You may personally stand against me, I'd like
to persuade you, but there are many fish in the sea. My purpose is not
to persuade you specifically. All I want is to defeat your words and
persuade those who may be persuaded, and I'm doing it, just like always.
The defeat of your ideas is for the benefit of
others. If you stand firm in your beliefs, what is that to
me if I gain five
others? I am the savor of life and the savor of death, and God
is well pleased with both. I'm doing my job.
because what
I believe came from God, not you or Pastor Murray.
I think that is nonsense too. God never taught you that it was wrong to
name people who are teaching false doctrine. You either made that up
yourself or you picked it up from Pastor Murray. Is this all you can do
to defend your doctrine? Multiply words that have no substance?
Before I found Shepherd's Chapel, I was so confused
that I almost gave up on "religion".
(me)
"These two sentences are very interesting.
" (you)
Never did I give up on God, just man made
religion. (me)
"I know this is not what you meant to say but what
you have said it this: "The Shepherd's Chapel restored my faith in
man-made religion." And that is the TRUTH. That is what it did."
(you)
See how easy it is to misinterpret words. You twist my words into
something I never said nor would I ever say.
And I said that I knew that:
"I know this is not what you meant to
say " I suppose, at this
point it, would be fair to question your intellect.
(But Christianity is not about intellect)
My point, (which you missed) was that even though you did not mean it.
The truth was that you have placed your faith in man's religion. The
"sex in the garden" doctrine is man's religion, the "we were angles in
the world that was" doctrine is man's religion. If you really placed
no faith in Dr. Murray, you never would have written me, but would have
let him stand on his own two feet. All your talk about not putting your
trust in man is just talk. Because I have observed you doing it in this
email conversation.
FWIW, I was disillusioned with preachers who didn't teach the
Bible.
Yeah? Well, I'm disillusioned with preachers who do
teach the bible, because they all teach different stuff.
This sentence betrays the implicit trust you have for Pastor Arnold
Murray. Because, in your opinion, he is one of the few teachers
who "do" teach the bible
I wanted so badly to just hear God's words, not theirs.
What about your bible? Do you think pastor Murray is different? He
does not follow the bible, he makes the bible follow him. It is a neat
trick, he isn't the only one.
I wanted my children and all those sitting in the pews to hear
God's words.
Then why all the disdain for the biblical account of the sin in the
garden?
I love God with all my heart,
I do doubt that. You cannot love God with all your heart, because you
do not know God. If I were to declare my God to you, I am reasonably
sure you would not love him because you are able to tolerate Arnold
Murray's teachings.
Those that love Arnold Murray's version of God would hate my God,
because my God is based on scripture and not on what Arnold Murray feels
is the right way for God to be.
Since I believe that my God is the real God and Pastor Murray's God is
not, I cannot believe that you love God. Yours is the God that pleases
you, that is what Dr. Murray's god is based on; on what pleases Arnold
Murray and also pleases the people who think like him.
and just to
hear His words to explain why they were saying what they did.
It would be better to explain why God says what he says.
Again, Paul, I will tell you that I do "independant study". All
that Shepherd's Chapel has done for me, is to let me know that God has
given to others some of what He has given to me.
I seriously doubt the truthfulness of
that statement. "All that Shepherd's Chapel has done"?
Really? You had all the same views, every single last one? And all
that the Shepherd's Chapel did was confirm the truths you had already
discovered all by your lonesome?
Like I said, I SERIOUSLY doubt that, I think you are engaging in a
little sincere stretching of the truth, but even if it were true, so
what? All that would prove is that doctrines of devils have many holes
from which they spring.
What I believe now is what I believed before I ever started
listening to Shepherd's Chapel.
You say so.
If you are at all interested in what God has given me, than I
would love to discuss it. However, I will not enter into dialogue (via
email) if you continue to attack my beliefs.
I'm not interested in your beliefs, I can already tell you don't know
what you are talking about, why would I be interested in your ideas?.
You should be listening to my bible studies. But I'm interested in
discussing the Shepherd's Chapel Doctrines, I'm not interested in your
particular special nuanced brand of Shepherd's Chapel doctrine, I'm only
interested in talking about the Doctrines taught by Pastor Arnold
Murray, because that is why people read my webpage.
That is why I keep going back to your original
point that
"Pastor Murray will not
speak specifically against nor take questions condemning other
religions or religious leaders. That alone puts him way above you."
That is one of Pastor Murray's doctrines
and it is a lie worthy of refuting. You have said nothing in defense of
this LIE. You just keep talking foolish talk and falsely claim that you
are a good student who knows what they are talking about. I am going
to make you a guarantee, noone is going to read this part of our
discussion (and I admire anyone who has kept reading this far) But
hardly anyone is going to read this far, they will read your initial
email, then they will read my response, then they will start to read
your reply and when they see that you did not answer my carefully
constructed arguments from scripture, they will write you off as another
failure and move on to another email..
I haven't attacked your beliefs.
Yes, you do, your whole email is an attack
on my beliefs.
Discussion in one thing, attacking another is wrong.
You seem to be confused, attacking someone by hitting someone on the
head with a hammer is wrong, but there is nothing wrong with attacking
someone's ideas with words. You are very far from the truth.
Jude 1:3 ...ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once
delivered unto the saints.
You are full of man's wisdom and you are not following Christ.
The sword is in my hand and I'm not afraid to use it, because to live
eternally, you have to die, and the word of God is the executioners axe
in my hand.
Only God knows all.
I never have said I know everything. I just purge out the leaven. You
are filled with leaven. doctrines of men, you are revealing this
constantly as you write. I do not judge you, your own words are witness
and the word of God is judge, you are just too ignorant of the word of
God to hear it's judgment on your words. I hear it.
So here is another letter, Paul. Will you publish it also?
Do you think this one was better? Of course I'll publish this. Why
wouldn't I? I'm not you.
We can discuss what we believe and why, but can we do it in
humility and love........... no personal attacks?
"with a double heart do they speak."
Now you talk nice to seem nice but you are not nice. The spirit of God
in me is leading me to give you no quarter. You wrote me, TAUNTING ME,
from the beginning, and now you want to talk all sweet and play nice?
No way. If you want my respect, you have to earn my respect, You threw
away the respect I give strangers with your first e-mail. I have no
respect left for you.
I have intelligence and I have God in my heart.
You say so, but since I don't have any respect for you, you will have to
prove that to me before I'll believe you.
I feel you mean well,
Of course I do, It seems like you do as well but you have avoided
discussing doctrine and made this personal. I answered your questions,
you "cherry picked" my responses. I find you rude and inconsiderate.
but please spend your time
explaining God's word (your interpretations) and not condemning
another's.
Take your own advice, you hypocrite, you say it is wrong to condemn
another's interpretation then why do you keep condemning me for
my interpretation.
Specifically, that I ought to hear the judgment of God and speak
it against Dr. Murray's teachings?
Sincerely,
Paul