Predestination: Is there any way to Change your predicament?

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Is There No Way to Change Your Predicament?

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Question/Comment:

----- Original Message -----

From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

To: Paul Stringini

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 10:31 AM

Subject: salvation by works

Hi Paul

Hoping you can clarify something for me? Your statement below makes it sound like there is no way to change your predicament. If that is true why are you wasting your time? Why am I wasting my time reading it? I screwed a slut in high school so I am going to hell. Might as well just buy a bag of crack and a harem of hookers and enjoy my ride there. Am I missing something? (p.s. like your metal music!) (p.s.s. absolutely not looking for a Murray/Shepherd’s chapel debate, I have no firm opinion in that department).

Thanks for your time

XXXXX

Statement - The Bible gives its own reason why God chooses His Elect. "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil (not any in this world or any world before it!), that the purpose of God, according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)" Romans 9 The Apostle Paul also said of the election of God, "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." Romans 9 The only reason that the elect are chosen is that the purpose of God has purposed it. People I meet all the time do not like that, but that is what the Bible teaches, God is sovereign over all, period.

My First Response:

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To: XXXXX XXX

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 1:35 PM

Subject: Re: salvation by works

Hello Scott,

That is a very reasonable question thanks for taking the time to write it. I did not come into this doctrine from my youth or from training, just from wrestling with the ideas in the scriptures. I used to have a very different view.

To begin with, to even begin to speak about predestination we have to do something impossible, we have to see the world from God's perspective. But even though we cannot see the world as he does, the scriptures give us a very stark and clear outline of God's perspective.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

I love that, I always hear people quote Einstein but I never heard anyone mention that Einstein was probably alluding to that proverb. No, God does not play dice with the Universe. God can't play dice. As creator of all things, he is the first cause of all things and being aware of all things, and maintaining all things, there are no surprises for God. That is absolute.

Man on the other hand, is not God, man is characterized by impotence and ignorance. We can play dice. And even though the outcome is "of the Lord." From our perspective we either write it off to "luck" or the ambitious might even try to explain the outcome of the dice in terms of angles, friction, and potential energy. What we can only know by careful observation and experience, is known of God on a level we cannot comprehend.

I think that is one of the biggest barriers to accepting the idea that God predestinates everything, because we instinctively think it means we now occupy his perspective, as though the things that are are the things that are destined.

Destiny in not folding our hand and accepting the present. Destiny is about fulfilling our dreams or realizing our nightmares.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

But what about your question? What can we do about "it?" (Our destiny)

And the first thing I would say is that being ignorant of our destiny, all we can do is what the scriptures advise, make our calling and election sure. Destiny is about destinations, I don't think of my current situation as being my destination, I'm pressing forward to a mark. Many think of their faith in terms of a one time commitment. I think this is error, the Apostles called us to go from faith to faith, from righteousness to righteousness, in other words, continue in the faith and "grow up into" Christ. (you should check out my John videos on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulStringini#p/c/6B33D623415B37B4/0/gbwnbYIdICY)

I find this idea codified in 2 Peter 1

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

That phrase "give diligence to make your calling and election sure"

in light of predestination, means that we are assuring ourselves, we are the ones who need assurance. God does not.

So we certainly need to be doing things to improve our situation. My philosophy is that I'll let that other guy be the one who folds his hands and yields to an evil destiny, I choose rather to believe that God has placed something greater in me, I choose rather to believe that my destiny is in God, and why not? If my destiny was otherwise, would I incur greater injury for my greater faith?

Some would call my zeal and choices a product of freewill, and I only assent that man is as free willed as two dice seem to be as they tumble across a table, because everything that is in me is the creation of God.

1 Cor 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

This is an important verse. And I think that people forget this, that our choices are products of things that are in us that are beyond our control. If I am the type of person who is ready to believe the Gospel, it is God who has prepared my heart.

And I can't get through this without saying this because it is always always always on the tip of peoples tongues.

If God is behind it all, then how can God judge man? "Why doth he yet find fault?"

If God was our equal then he could not, but he is not our equal he is our creator.

I've said this before and maybe you've read it, but I can't remember where I wrote it before, and wrote it better, but I'll say it again.

God is not fair. God is more than fair to most, and gracious to a few. God owes no one a living. See the parable of the workers who worked all for a penny. "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with that which is my own? Is your eye evil because I am good?"

What can we do to change our situation?

Use every faculty and ability that God gave us to the fullest extent.

What can we do to change our destiny?

Absolutely nothing.

I hope I made that contrast clear. Destiny is for God to work. Man ought to make the most of what he has to reveal a good destiny, because folding your hands and doing nothing will definitely result in an evil destiny, that, we can be sure of.

As far as your side questions, (perhaps these are hypothetical)  If you were a slut in high school, that does not determine your destiny, though it may, if you let it. Yes, maybe that is your destiny, if you give yourself to it, and your life becomes characterized by it, then you can be sure of it. But if you rather give yourself to righteousness, then that will be your destiny. Some people get a better chance than others, you could have been screwing that slut, smoking that crack and had a massive heart attack, and that would have been "Hello Destiny" for you. But you lived, and so as far as you are concerned, unless you are old and have along track record of absolute obedience to God, you ought to consider your destiny wide open, after all, we don not see ourselves as God sees us, we cannot see out destiny.

I guess my point to you would be that you need to really meditate on these ideas. It seems like you rely on your own wisdom to tell you what makes sense. I would advise you to accept that the scriptures are wise and then try to make sense of the world in light of the scriptures. In other words, yield to the ideas in the bible. Let them teach you. Men do not savor the things that are of God, we have to acquire the taste.   Anyway, that is just my opinion and advice based on your very short letter.

Fell free to ask follow-up questions, this was a good question. I have had to be brief, this was the third email today, I'm not a minister or paid for this (hardly anyone donates either), so I have to get to work.

Sincerely,

Paul Stringini

Emailer's First Reply:

----- Original Message -----

From: XXXXXXXXXXXX

To: 'Paul Stringini'

Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 2:56 PM

Subject: RE: salvation by works

Thanks for the response Paul!

My initial query was brief because I did not think you would actually respond (figured you would think I wanted to debate Murray).

Like you I have beliefs that deviate from the main stream. I believe the ten commandments were written in stone by the finger of God twice so you know those are correct. Everything else was written by men and is about as reliable as men can be. In the end it is hard to even make it through a day just living up to the ten commandments.

I debate the bible as a way to “watch”, and spend some time thinking about God. It is hard for me to find anyone who will “reason from the scriptures” with an open mind. Most fall back to something someone else told them and say “it is a mystery you can’t understand” or “God has not opened your eyes”. While I do not agree with you, it is obvious you are passionate about God and do your best to try and find the truth.

I might not have any answers for you, but I definitely have plenty of questions that will give you an opportunity to “defend your faith”. I will get together a well supported case (from the bible of course!) and forward to you.

Thanks again for your time. Looking forward to some “spirited” debate!

xxxxx

Emailer's Subsequent Reply:

----- Original Message -----

From: xxxxxxxxxxxxx

To: 'Paul Stringini'

Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 8:15 AM

Subject: RE: salvation by works

Hi Paul

Sorry it took so long to respond (will spare you personal tale of woe). After much study, prayer and careful deliberation I came to a conclusion that is very interesting. I guess it something I have always had in the back of my mind but never really took the time to consider – there are three “stations” (for lack of a better term) a person can have. There are certainly those that are “evil” and cannot be saved (those destined for destruction), there are those that are “saints” and cannot be lost (those of the first resurrection), and there are those that could go either way.

The ideas of “saved” and “lost” are great themes throughout the Bible. If there was no possibility of either God would be a fool to waste so much time on them. Obviously, God is not a fool. He is the God of wisdom, reason, and order (as exemplified by the large volume of test devoted to these topics), therefore, the possibility of either has to exist.

The parable of the sower lays this idea out quite clearly (Mar 4:13+, Mat 13:11+, two witnesses so it is probably correct). The seed is scattered randomly, not placed specifically. The seed scattered by the way side is destroyed by Satan, those that are “evil”. The seed on the good ground bears fruit, those that are “saints”. The other two seeds sown had a chance either way. The seed on the stony ground loses their chance. The seed choked by thorns does not lose their chance, they just don’t bear fruit (bear fruit means save others here, not to be confused with those who don’t bear fruit being destroyed elsewhere).

Would welcome any thoughts you might have. Thanks again for your time.

Scott

My Second Response:

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 11:38 AM

Subject: Re: salvation by works

Hi XXXXXXXX

There are certainly those that are “evil” and cannot be saved (those destined for destruction), there are those that are “saints” and cannot be lost (those of the first resurrection),

Ok, we agree up so far.

and there are those that could go either way.

When I first started studying the bible, I was taught that there were such, but I was never able to establish a satisfactory scriptural basis for believing this. Eventually I discarded the idea.

The ideas of “saved” and “lost” are great themes throughout the Bible.

Agreed.

If there was no possibility of either God would be a fool to waste so much time on them. Obviously, God is not a fool.

Now there I disagree.  Careful not to let your assumptions lead you into straw-man arguments. Would God really be a fool to expend his time on an outcome that he knew was fixed? That is a very absolute statement you have made, and you rest much of your argument on its logic.

It is out of our need to understand God through our own eyes that we characterize behaviors that we do not understand as being that of a fool. There are many things we can observe that may seem foolish when we do not understand them. In our anxiousness to understand God, we are actually quicker to judge things foolish, so that we can reach a conclusion that pleases us all the sooner, because men are not patient with understanding God.

One of the great analogies of the bible is that God is the potter and we are the clay. It is not foolish for the potter to begin his work with a definite product in mind. And even if the potter is working without predetermination, it is still his hand that guides the creation.

Also, the bible certainly gives us many reasons to believe that God is entirely in control. The reasons for taking God out of total control, I believe, arise mainly from a sort of Philosophical panic that men feel when they try to wrap their minds around the idea that God is totally sovereign.

We feel this intense need to get God "off the hook," for things we feel that we do not want him to be held responsible for. It is more out of our desire to have God pass OUR JUDGMENT than out of any consideration of what the scriptures teach is the truth. We are afraid of what we will think of God if we accept him as he portrays himself, and so we lie to ourselves about God and make him as we would like him to be. We make God acceptable to us and then label that accordingly:

He is the God of wisdom, reason, and order (as exemplified by the large volume of test devoted to these topics),

But is the wisdom order and reason of human perception the same as the wisdom order and reason that God created and loves? Might not our wisdom order and reason be flawed by the lens of human experience? There are certainly ample scriptural reasons to think so

1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

It says that the preaching of the cross is foolish to them, if you ever listen to people talk today about the cross you can see how Paul was right. The idea of God sending his son to die for the sin of the world is mocked as stupid and foolish, just look on youtube. And they are right, God would have to be a fool to sacrifice his son that whoever would believe on him would not perish. Now maybe you think you know something more, maybe you are going to start telling me more about the cross and about God, but I would call that proving my point.

therefore, the possibility of either has to exist.

The possibilities of either exist only as a perception of the human mind. God deemed it good that we should experience life as it is currently experienced. We know nothing of our destiny (other than that we shall die) and so God speaks to us in terms of what our destiny may be to provoke us to fulfill our destiny. Maybe that does not satisfy us (Lord knows I could try to make a better explanation) But If God knows the end from the beginning, what is that to us? When I look at Romans 9 I see two types of vessels, for destruction and for mercy, there really is no in between. Could there be? Of course, but that is not the world that we exist in.

The parable of the sower lays this idea out quite clearly (Mar 4:13+, Mat 13:11+, two witnesses so it is probably correct). The seed is scattered randomly, not placed specifically.

The seed is scattered "randomly," somewhat, but the seed is the word of God, not the fate of men, the fate of men does not lie in the seed but in the soil. So I think you miss the most important point here.   The soil represents the hearts of men:   "that which was sown in his heart. (matt 13:19)"

2Cor 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life.

The fates of men are determined by the type of soil. The soil is a good or bad place to grow seed because it is either good or bad by its very nature, the sower does not work the soil, the soil cannot change, the soil is what it is and the whole matter of the seed bringing forth fruit is goverened by only one factor: soil type. The soil represents the hearts of men. These are the basic points of the parable and I think that you ought to note that in your zeal to prove your point, you misinterpreted the symbols here.

The seed scattered by the way side is destroyed by Satan, those that are “evil”. The seed on the good ground bears fruit, those that are “saints”.

The seed is the word. Satan is not destoyring them, but stealing away the word. It is fascinating to me, observing that you missed this point. The soil is the heart, the seed is the word. I think that has to change your interpretation of this parable.

The other two seeds sown had a chance either way.

The seed is the word. The soil is the heart. Scott, you must study these parables more closely. I would be very embarrassed for your sake, but I don't intend to publish this since it does not really relate to the Shepherd's Chapel.

The seed on the stony ground loses their chance. The seed choked by thorns does not lose their chance, they just don’t bear fruit

Xxxxx, when the seeds were in the bag they all had a chance, because the seeds are identical. And really, as I was alluding to before, "random" is a mistake. I have engaged in broadcast sowing of seed, and you aim for the good soil but some happens to bounce here and there.  Imagine that the sower was walking down a road sowing seeds on it, that is a ridiculous image. The seed is sown at the good ground with some overflow on the surrounding areas, the sower is not trying to waste seed, but to work quickly and cover all of the good ground, you want every inch of the good ground to be used up, what lands on the path lands on the path, but the soweer does not go out and sow among thorns or on stony ground in order to give that ground a chance. I think people get this image of the sower that misses the way that sowing is actually done. It is like a distorted stained glass version of the story.

The seed among thorns or on stony ground only SEEMED to be anything else because of human perception, but the type of soil dictated from the beginning that neither of these types would bear fruit.

In the end the seed does not bare fruit, that is the only point here, there is not difference in the end of the three ill fated soils. It is not a parable so much about salvation as it is about how people hear the gospel (and are subsequentially saved, yes).

(bear fruit means save others here, not to be confused with those who don’t bear fruit being destroyed elsewhere).

No, saving others is not the meaning of bearing fruit, and I have to say honestly, that I really hate that interpretation. Bearing fruit is bringing forth the end for which the seed was planted in the first place, the fruit of the word of God, our salvation? yes, and more than that.

2Peter1 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

"Saving others" is not on the list. It is not the way the apostles though about salvation and fruit.

Sincerely,

Paul

Emailer's Third Reply

----- Original Message -----

From: xxxxxxxxxxxxx

To: 'Paul Stringini'

Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 12:25 PM

Subject: RE: salvation by works

Hi Paul

It is clear we are incapable of understanding why God allows ”bad” things to happen. It is also clear we are created in God’s image. I cannot teach a young child the intricacies of nuclear physics, but I can teach him how to add and subtract. God cannot teach us the full extent of ultimate plan, but he can teach us right from wrong. It is possible for us to glean some of his wisdom. I know you understand the “wisdom” referred to in the verse you cited below refers to the wisdom of the “world” (how to get power, money, etc.) not the wisdom of God (how to obey the ten commandments in a world full of evil).

You are correct in asserting that God’s wisdom is different than the wisdom of the world. By the worlds wisdom seed is only sown on good ground, by God’s wisdom seed is sown on all ground. By the world’s wisdom you only do things that are “good” for your son, by God’s wisdom you do things for your son that will help him mature and grow (some of which will not be “good”).

Romans 9 talks about two types of vessels but that does not eliminate the possibility of a third (see the “what is that to us (you properly)” verse you cite). The potter forms the clay, but the pot must then be fired. During the firing process the pot may become strong or may break. However careful the potter is he is not completely in control of the end result. There are always a few pots that will break. Is it more likely God should be “let off the hook” because he gave us free will, or is it more likely we should be “let off the hook” because everything is predetermined?

While you may “hate” (which, as a brother, I have to strongly caution you against hating anything) the interpretation of the good soil there is ample proof of bearing fruit. When people asked Jesus how to be saved he quoted the ten commandments. When the “rich young ruler” wanted more than to just be saved Jesus told him “follow me”. Jesus sends out the 70. Paul’s whole existence revolved around bearing fruit (pre and post conversion). Paul talks about a “more excellent resurrection”. The “saints” are resurrected first and help Jesus rule for a thousand years. Does the “charity” referred to in the 2Peter verse you cite refer to flipping a bum a quarter or helping someone to find the Way? We are in control of the quality of the soil. We may be able to just save ourselves, or we may be saints and save many. T o be fair it has to be said bearing fruit can also be fruitless. The wisdom of the world would say you have to produce converts and show immediate results today to bear fruit. The wisdom of God would say spreading his word is bearing fruit and you may never, or at least immediately, know if you have impacted a single soul. Saving them, or (it grieves my soul to say it) providing them with the opportunity to hurt themselves.

The 2Peter verse you cite says “give diligence to make your calling and election sure”. If everything is pre-determined why do you need to make it “sure”? If everything is pre-determined why did it “grieve God at his heart” that he made man prior to the flood (Gen 6:6)? If everything is pre-determined why would the Lord have to “repent of the evil which he thought to do to his people” because they made a golden calf while Moses was getting the ten commandments (Exo 32:14)? If everything is pre-determined why did God change his mind about destroying Nineveh when they repented at Jonah’s warning? If everything is pre-determined why would Jesus even think to pray to God to “take away this cup from me” while he was waiting in the garden to be captured (Mar 14:36)?

Your “embarrassment” for me is touching, but completely misplaced. I will NEVER be ashamed of the word of God. I encourage debate in the spirit of “watching”. I want to know the truth and thank God if I find a better way of thinking about something. I don’t participate in religion. There is no club for me to shame. Feel free to “publish” anything I have to say (although not completely sure what you mean by that?). How you use what I have to say is between you and God.

The extent of my involvement with Shepherd’s Chapel is watching it on TV when I wake up too early and want to fall back asleep. I don’t know all the ins and outs of their ideas. They seem to mean well, don’t charge for their message, and encourage people to read the bible. This puts them ahead of most churches. However, their participation in Xmass shows they fall short. Rationalizing it by saying it was the day Jesus was “conceived” does not change what it really is (perhaps a debate for a different day!).

Thanks again for your time Paul!

XXXXXXXX

My Fourth Response:

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 4:09 PM

Subject: Re: salvation by works

This is all the time I have for you, my ministry is to help people and teach people. My time is precious and I do not have any to spare. Certainly not to engage in a lengthy debate, but I owe you this much, you may reply, but I may put you off permanently (or not).

It is clear we are incapable of understanding why God allows ”bad” things to happen.

I don't see that. Sometimes maybe. But often I have see many reasons why bad things happen. We are capable of understanding, but understanding is not always available, or apparent. So I disagree.

It is also clear we are created in God’s image. I cannot teach a young child the intricacies of nuclear physics, but I can teach him how to add and subtract. God cannot teach us the full extent of ultimate plan, but he can teach us right from wrong. It is possible for us to glean some of his wisdom.

Again, I do not see it. The extent of God's ultimate plan is apparent. "To bring many sons to glory." Christ has brought to light "life and immortality" through the gospel. (2Timothy 1:10) Some things we may see "as through a glass darkly," but that has little to do with the ultimate plan, but rather the details of the eternal existence. Indeed we cannot comprehend things which exceed our experience, such as multidimensional reality and multidimensional time, but we can certainly understand the ultimate plan of God for mankind in the most basic terms.

I know you understand the “wisdom” referred to in the verse you cited below refers to the wisdom of the “world” (how to get power, money, etc.) not the wisdom of God (how to obey the ten commandments in a world full of evil).

Then you would be wrong about me again. There is more to it than that. The wisdom of the world is also made of religious dogma and philosophical conventions. The verse I quoted actually referred to RELIGIOUS WISDOM, not what you said. I get the feeling you went to school , and, frankly, the pollution shows.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

The wisdom Paul was indicating that the Greeks were looking for was philosophical wisdom, not economic. The kind of wisdom that the men who melded Christianity and Greek philosophy loved.   And I hate it, because it exalts itself against the knowledge of God.

You are correct in asserting that God’s wisdom is different than the wisdom of the world. By the worlds wisdom seed is only sown on good ground, by God’s wisdom seed is sown on all ground. By the world’s wisdom you only do things that are “good” for your son, by God’s wisdom you do things for your son that will help him mature and grow (some of which will not be “good”).

That is not the tack I would have adopted. But I'm not going to argue there. We are the savor of life and death, and both are sweet to God.

Romans 9 talks about two types of vessels but that does not eliminate the possibility of a third (see the “what is that to us (you properly)” verse you cite).

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Really the only thing leaving room for that idea here is your desire to have it so.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (this leaves no one out)
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

This is a dichotomy, a division into two mutually exclusive, opposed, or contradictory groups, it is an either-or proposition. Mercy or Wrath. You would insert indifference? I find that distasteful. I think you are more fond of your own philosophy than of the scriptures. If you are willing to corrupt the word of God, there is always room for you do insert such pollution, true, but how dare you? You need to start submitting yourself to what the bible says instead of submitting the bible to what you think. Read the text. Accept the direct implications.

The potter forms the clay, but the pot must then be fired. During the firing process the pot may become strong or may break. However careful the potter is he is not completely in control of the end result. There are always a few pots that will break.

My younger brother has to learn this same lesson. Analogies are not meant to be taken as complete analogs for the full truth. They are used for what they are worth, and the way they are used dictates what they mean. Perfect analogies are rare. Partial analogies are common. You are making the mistake of assuming that the potter analogy should be carried forward beyond the way it is used in the scriptures and that conclusions may be read into the analogy in order to create NEW ideas that are philosophically alien to the scriptures. Not acceptable.

The point about the potter is that he has ABSOLUTE POWER over the clay. The potter is God , not a man. He knows all. A real potter might die and his pots be given to others. His pots might get ruined in the fire. Do you actually like taking the analogy there? To9 the point where you see God as meaning good for you, but because the fire is totally unpredictable, you might just get broken by accident and wind up in the trash??? I'm Glad God is more of a potter than that! The analogy fails because flesh and earth fail. Basically you are saying it is not God's fault if his oven messes us up, I'm sorry you can't get him off the hook for that, he ought to know better, he is GOD.

Is it more likely God should be “let off the hook” because he gave us free will, or is it more likely we should be “let off the hook” because everything is predetermined?

Now that is a false dichotomy, that is NOT an either-or proposition.   Even if everything is predetermined, that does not mean that man automatically gets let off the hook, because we are complex creatures and we are what we are created to be and we deserve what we get, even wrath.   If we were made to be destroyed then God is justified in destroying us, if ONLY because that is our PURPOSE. Wrap your mind around that. I'm not here to argue with you. This is it. I'm an absolutist. It is lawful for God to do what he wills with that which is his own. (Matt 20:15)

There are an infinite number of souls that God could have created. The fact that we exist means that God is not being fair to an infinite number of people who might be given life, who might have mercy shown to them. Wrap your mind around it. Those souls are left out (presuming that there are not an infintie number of worlds, and even if there are....).   Is God fair? What made Hitler more deserving of existence than my unconceived twin brother?

Think about it. If anything, there is your "third group." There is the group outside of God's will, the unconceived, those that exist only as potential..

While you may “hate” (which, as a brother, I have to strongly caution you against hating anything)

Don't condescend when you are standing, hip deep, in mud.

Prov 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Amos 5:15 Hate the evil, and love the good,

Hate is good. Wrong again.

Psalm 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

You are making it more and more difficult for me to respect you. That right there was the wisdom of man. "Don't hate anything." Pure Conventional wisdom. It is Folly.

While you may “hate” the interpretation of the good soil there is ample proof of bearing fruit.

You must have misunderstood me. What it the point of talking if you are just trying to debate me, but not trying to come to an understanding. You were wrong about the parable.  Dead wrong. I said I hate the interpretation that "bearing fruit means saving others." But you provide no evidence for this.

When people asked Jesus how to be saved he quoted the ten commandments. When the “rich young ruler” wanted more than to just be saved Jesus told him “follow me”.

Who has been teaching you? WRONG. WRONG! The ten commandments CANNOT SAVE. The ten commandments can only kill you.

W R O N G !!!!!!!

What perverts have been instructing you Scott? What corrupters? Seriously. This is GRAVE. You are FAR from the kingdom. You need to start listening to my bible studies. http://oraclesofgod.org/studies/studies.html This debate is pointless. You have nothing to add to me, you are a progressive revelation of error and it gets more and more grave.

Luke 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

This was not in addition to salvation, but part of it. Did you learn NOTHING from the New Testament? Don't you know that the law is there to condemn and that the righteousness of the Law is INSUFFICIENT for salvation?

Jesus sends out the 70. Paul’s whole existence revolved around bearing fruit (pre and post conversion). Paul talks about a “more excellent resurrection”. The “saints” are resurrected first and help Jesus rule for a thousand years.

It is not to say that having others hear the gospel is not fruitful activity. I object to your saying that my fruit is "saving others." But rather the truth is that one plants, another waters, but GOD GIVES THE INCREASE. My personal fruit is just more seed, The harvest is the Lord's.

You are missing the fact that people REJECTING the Gospel is ALSO the product of my fruitfulness.

2Cor 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

BOTH ARE SWEET. BOTH ARE FRUITFUL. FRUIT IS SEED. Later it becomes more fruit in others. But you are WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Does the “charity” referred to in the 2Peter verse you cite refer to flipping a bum a quarter or helping someone to find the Way?

Both and more. But it has no bearing on the fact that the fruit in the parable is not "saving others" it is being ABLE to save others, READY to save others. If no one is ever saved by my words, if my words are truth, then I am still fruitful to God. I help him reap a harvest of DEATH. And it is SWEET.

We are in control of the quality of the soil.

Wrong. God is in control.

We may be able to just save ourselves, or we may be saints and save many.

What fresh darkness is this?   Where did you pick up your jargon Scott? Who has bewitched you. Don't hide from me.

T o be fair it has to be said bearing fruit can also be fruitless.

Nope. See what I said above. I am a sweet savor in them that are saved and in them that perish, fruitful all around.

The wisdom of the world would say you have to produce converts and show immediate results today to bear fruit. The wisdom of God would say spreading his word is bearing fruit and you may never, or at least immediately, know if you have impacted a single soul. Saving them, or (it grieves my soul to say it) providing them with the opportunity to hurt themselves.

It does not grieve me. I rejoice in them that are saved and I rejoice in them that perish, because the word of God is fulfilled, and I am triumphant in Christ.

The 2Peter verse you cite says “give diligence to make your calling and election sure”. If everything is pre-determined why do you need to make it “sure”?

Because I am not God. I make it sure to myself, I have to be assured. I might be deceiving myself, but if I see the works of God in my life I grow in assurance and confidence that my election is real.

If everything is pre-determined why did it “grieve God at his heart” that he made man prior to the flood (Gen 6:6)?

Anthropomorphism.   This is typical behavior, the doctrine stands written, but the debate flees to a new venue. Something said in a narrative is not the same as that which is written in doctrine. Romans 9 is the explanation. Narratives can be explained away, but doctrine NEVER. Deal with the doctrine. There are always exceptions being grasped at, but why do you even dare? Is it not written in the DOCTRINE?

If everything is pre-determined why would the Lord have to “repent of the evil which he thought to do to his people” because they made a golden calf while Moses was getting the ten commandments (Exo 32:14)?

Again, it is another narrative, there are many explanations we could think up for why God says things they way he does when he relates to man. But the DOCTRINE IS WRITTEN. Once you submit to the doctrine you will not find such passages so puzzling. I certainly don't. I might well ask you. Why does God say "ADAM WHERE ARE YOU" if he is all knowing? Why does he ask him if he ate the fruit of the tree?

These passages are worded this way for the benefit of the hearers. Not to communicate that God is less than GOD. Israel is being shown the utter PERIL their actions had landed them in. "The Lord was Going to destroy them." Was he really? Or is this a LITERARY DEVICE used to indicate their PERIL. God knew what he would do from the beginning. Don't be RIDICULOUS.

If everything is pre-determined why did God change his mind about destroying Nineveh when they repented at Jonah’s warning?

Ditto. He didn't really.  This was said for their sake. The possibility only existed for man because only man is governed by time and place, GOD IS GOVERNOR of time and place.

If everything is pre-determined why would Jesus even think to pray to God to “take away this cup from me” while he was waiting in the garden to be captured (Mar 14:36)?

Because that is what wee should do.

Then there is this:

John 11:41... And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

Simple.

Your “embarrassment” for me is touching, but completely misplaced. I will NEVER be ashamed of the word of God.

Your lack of humility is disturbing. You botched the parable and you ought rather to have humbled yourself. But instead you get on your high-horse and start pontificating to me about the word of God? You are right about one thing for sure, I misplace my kindness on you. I was kind to you and you are not worthy of it. I'm not embarrassed for you anymore. I laugh at you in your pride. You have nothing to be proud of. You are making very serious errors interpreting the scriptures.

I encourage debate in the spirit of “watching”. I want to know the truth and thank God if I find a better way of thinking about something.

Your method is a failure.

I don’t participate in religion.

Yes you do. You are a religion to yourself. I hate when people try to invent their own definition of words. You are a religious man, as am I. It does not have to be organized to be religion. Get over it. And get off your high-horse.

There is no club for me to shame. Feel free to “publish” anything I have to say (although not completely sure what you mean by that?). How you use what I have to say is between you and God.

I have no intention of publishing this conversation. But I'll reserve the freedom, thanks. What I meant is what I do with the students of the Shepherd's Chapel. They write me and I publish the conversation on my website. This is something else. I wrote this for you and I have spoken candidly to you, for you. If you feel insulted at all, remember, this is just you and me, please don't be angry, but I'm telling you these things for your own good, not to hurt you or because I lack any love for you.

As someone who is deeply familiar with the bible I can tell you that you need much more study. "In the multitude of counsel is safety." If you love the truth then you owe it to the truth to listen to my line by line bible studies and judge my words by the word.http://oraclesofgod.org/studies/studies.html

Leviticus 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

That is LOVE. I'm a plain speaker, I do not have time to craft soft speeches so my words are rough, you take them for what you will.

The extent of my involvement with Shepherd’s Chapel is watching it on TV when I wake up too early and want to fall back asleep. I don’t know all the ins and outs of their ideas. They seem to mean well, don’t charge for their message, and encourage people to read the bible. This puts them ahead of most churches.

Whatever, that opinion is the least of your problems.

However, their participation in Xmass shows they fall short. Rationalizing it by saying it was the day Jesus was “conceived” does not change what it really is (perhaps a debate for a different day!).

Ok, my weak brother, it is just meat sacrificed to idols, and that is the least of Their problems. And another symptom of your illness.

Sincerely,

Paul Stringini

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