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Criticisms of My Article regarding the Shepherd's Chapel and Pastor Arnold Murray, Including the question of whether 1 John 5:7-8 Establishes the doctrine of the Trinity. (For my views on the nature of God see my article on that subject.)
----- Original Message -----From: Name and Address WithheldTo: firstname.lastname@example.org (Paul Stringini)Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 7:11 PMSubject: Your Artical on Arnold Murray
Dear Sir,If a little yeast makes the whole bread cake rise then maybe you had better look at yoursIn regards to the Trinity: You should read 1st John Chapter 5, verse 7.There are three that bear record in Heaven, The Father, The Word(Son), and The Holy Ghost(Or Spirit or Wind) and these three are one.This verse is very simple even Arnold Murray can't mess this up.I make mistakes every day, the difference between you and I and Arnold Murray is He is leading many down a troublesome path. Men of conscience should read the Bible and try to understand it, before teaching it. Pastor Murray is woefully wrong in many areas. I believe you sataement that a lot of what he teaches comes from his own mind not the word of God. But does he think he is doing wrong -- I really don't think so. The only redeeming thing I see is this-- I will not have to stand in or up for him at the Judgment. You will stand on your own and I will as well. I am so happy that my salvation is based on the Grace of Christ through his blood, which is based on my unmerited favor. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son Of God and that he died for the forgiveness of my sins and rose from the Grave after three days. This is the faith that our religion is based on. Each of us has to use Christian discernment in our lives everyday. But most people don't read enough of the Bible to carry on and intelligent conversation. God uses us all for his purpose; maybe, He use Arnold Murray to get you and other like me to read their Bibles more to prove him wrong.When I first started listen to The Shepherd's Chapel it didn't take long to hear the Serpent's seed story. I knew at that point that Mr Murray was a few bricks short of a load in his beliefs. Even a rank amature like me checks the tense of a word in Hebrew- Begiled can mean seduced but more accurately due to the tense of the writer and the pattern of the writing it is deceived or enamored. (Gen 3:14) In the writer's modesty in Chapter 4 verse 1Adan knew Eve, his wife and she conceved and bare Cain and said,"I have gotten a man"From the Lord". (Not Satan)At this point it is not explicitly clear that the second childwas a twin but it could be, she could have continued in labor or she could have continue to know her husband and had a second child at a later date. The Bible doesn't make that distinctionsHow modest was Moses was in discussing the relationship between Adan and Eve.It goes against logic to assume he would be use the term Begile in anything but the mostconservative of cases and tense.In this area we agree.There was not to many thing we disagreed on; and if we can agree that Christ Died for our sins and that through our faith in him and the redemptive factor of his blood. We shall find our eternal life near God the Father, God The Son and God the Holy Spirit. Being near God is Heaven.I pray God will bless us with the wisdom of Solomon so we will know what God wants us to do, the strength of Samson so that we might be able to hold on to him and Faith of Abraham that we might never doubt God.In the Name of the One that Loves us AllI remainXXX XXXXXPSPLease note I sign my name --- Why didn't you?
----- Original Message -----From: email@example.comTo: XXXXXXXXXXXSent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:33 PMSubject: Re: Your Artical on Arnold Murray
Hi, thanks for the note, but 1st John Chapter 5, verse 7 does not appear in any ancient Greek text of 1 John, it first appears in medieval Latin copies, in the margins, and eventually crept into the text. So it holds not weight with me.The words in bold are not the words of an Apostle.1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.This is what John really wrote7 For there are three that bear record the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.And that is just a fact.I do not think I suggested that Pastor Murray teaches falsely "on purpose" or "knowingly." But either make the tree good and its fruit good or make the tree evil and its fruit evil.You said this.PSPLease note I sign my name --- Why didn't you?Because it is my site and my name is all over it, I don't put it as a big giant banner on the front page but my testimony and biography have my name on it so do several other pages. My name is pretty well known as a independent Christian Musician, I'm not exactly famous but plenty of people know who I am.
When anyone looks at my Shepherd's Chapel page (and all related pages) they will notice at the top in the colored bar it says, "The Shepherd's Chapel and Dr. Arnold Murray - By Paul Stringini" It has always said that.
"But does he think he is doing wrong -- I really don't think so."
This has come up a few times (not just in email) People have the impression that I think Dr. Murray is knowingly misleading people. One Shepherd's Chapel student, in a phone conversation, told me, "That is what it seems like." I think that this is because I hold Dr. Murray personally responsible for his misteachings.
The question is this: if someone misteaches the Bible, ignorantly, will they be held responsible by God?
The answer is yes, Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
If God causes a man to be blind to the truth and that man teaches the scriptures and speaks in the name of the Lord. God will hold him accountable.
1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
If false prophets like Dr. Murray really knew what they were doing, then they would not do it. That is why God hides the truth from them.
Emailer's Reply (Emphasis added in BOLD and underline):
----- Original Message -----From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXSent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 6:17 PMSubject: Re: Your Artical on Arnold MurrayThanks again,As we debate and learn others view and understanding of the Bible it is important to remember that salvation is a gift from God through the death burial and Resurrection of his Son Jesus the Christ. It is our primary job to sow seeds of the faith.
This is what my Son looked up in his Greek Class." I have looked into what the Greek says in 1 John 5:7 and have found that the oldest Greek manuscripts which were not available when the KJV was written does not include the words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one." And there are three that bear witness in earth."] The Oldest manuscripts read as follows:
oti treiv eisin (5748) oi marturountev, (5723) For there are three that testify (bear witness):
Erasmus' Greek text in 1535 included the following words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one"
oti treiv eisin oi marturountev en tw ouranw o pathr o logov kai to agion pneuma kai outoi oi treiv en eisin.
For there are (5748) three that bear record (5723) in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are (5748) one.
The 1894 Textus Recipitus reads the same. It is important to note that many of the oldest manuscripts have been found with in recent years and at the time Eramus' translated from Laten back into Greek. When the KJV was written there was not a complete manuscripts of the New Testament and
thus much of Revelation was translated from the Latin.
Is Gods word accurate and without error? Absolutely! This passage is in harmony with the rest of scripture and either way it reads the passage in 1 john 5 speaks volumes about the diety of Christ and the Trinity.
Again It is my belief that " There are three that bear record; the father the word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one."Jesus said from his own mouth, "When you have seen me you have seen the Father."At a minimum you must believe that.Have a good night.In the name of the one(three) that loves us all.XXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
That, was a strange reply, the gentleman's son reports to him, and his son's report agrees with me; that 1John 5:7b-8a are not part of the original text of the Bible. That the oldest texts we have do not include that part of those verses. His son researches what I said and finds that what I said was accurate. Cool!
But this gentleman finishes his email as if the exact opposite had happened "Is Gods word accurate and without error? Absolutely!" What he fails to grasp is that notes in the margin of a bible, that crept into medieval copies, are not God's word. He also fails to comprehend what his son has written to him (I think he so expected to be vindicated that he did not read what his son wrote him with any understanding but merely skimmed it figuring he had me) His sons states "When the KJV was written there was not a complete manuscripts of the New Testament" Which can be restated thus: Have our Bibles been Translated from incomplete and inaccurate manuscripts? Absolutely! "It is important to note that many of the oldest manuscripts have been found with in recent years"
That is what happened to 1John5:7,8 I'm amazed at the people who get all angry at me about this, "You are attacking God's Word!!!" No I'm not, I'm protecting it from those who would like to pervert the text with filthy pollution. But holding onto falsehood like this, you are helping those who would pervert the word.
My Original Reply:
----- Original Message -----From: firstname.lastname@example.orgTo: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXSent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:30 PMSubject: Re: Your Artical on Arnold MurraySO which is God's word? The Oldest Greek texts available? Or the KJV and Erasmus Texts? As far as I'm concerned I'll stick with the text which is closest to the Apostles and Prophets (by over a thousand years!!), just because something is "in Harmony with scripture" (allegedly) is no reason to allow the commentaries of scribes and priests into the text.
----- Original Message -----From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXSent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 8:40 PMSubject: Re: Your Artical on Arnold MurrayWhat ever you like.Good bye
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