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A Very Opinionated Opinion From Someone Who Places No Value In Opinions
Is Everyone Wrong and Everyone Not Wrong? What is the True Meaning and Power of Opinion?
----- Original Message -----From: Name and Address WithheldSent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 7:47 AMSubject: a simple overall coment.
I dont side with anyone totally; blindly if you will. Pastor Murry provides his 'translation' just as everyone does hut he flatey states "dont believe this, or any other man". Its for you to do your own study and document. Funny think. 10 people can read scripture and draw 10 different meanings from the passages. It doesn't mean one is right and the others are wrong. This argument has no resolution or correct answer. It's impossible to determine facts. As an engineer by training and profession, it's a very unwise practice to use unsubstianted 'facts' to document new hypothese e.g. using scripture to document scripture. The actual facts have been lost over time by countless translations and intrepretations from strong willed, good intentioned and very opionated people such as yourself -and- Pastor Murray. Yes, the writings haven't changed but the times have and also keep in mind that these were scribed at best several hundred years after the fact and based from oral traditions. Until science can uncover tangible evidence supporting scripture, as has been going on recently, it's simply a matter of faith... a belief in something for reasons not supported by any existing facts. Some of Pastor Murray's views, in my opinion, are off the wall so to speak as are some of yours.A lot of what I've seen on your web site sounds like proverbial sour grapes. Pastor Murror, in this regard, sides more with my viewpoint of not pointing fingers and any one specific target. He lets 'students', whatever that is, decide for themselves. Again, its a matter of faith and personal opinion based on the research and depth an individual has taken the time to do. You aren't right but neither is he. You arent wrong as he isn't either. Its a matter of faith and beliefs of the individual.
My First Response:edits in maroon and in ( ), as in: (this is an example of an edit)
----- Original Message -----To: Name and Address WithheldSent: Monday, June 07, 2010 3:16 PMSubject: Re: a simple overall coment.
John, That is not a simple comment.I dont side with anyone totally; blindly if you will.I would assert that no one thinks they are blind, they all say they see, including you. And really, you do take a side, I don't hear from your side too much but you have a side none the less. Your opinion is shared by others. And who is to say your opinion is right? I definitely see flaws in it. And you seem to miss them. to my vision you are blind, and you definitely think I'm missing something. Allow me to illustrate. I'm familiar with you opinion, it is very common.Pastor Murry provides his 'translation' just as everyone does hut he flatey states "dont believe this, or any other man". Its for you to do your own study and document.Many take this gesture as assurance that they can trust him. Everyone puts their trust in some opinion delivered to them by some man. I do, he does, and YOU do. For example, the things you say about the scriptures, you have no first hand knowledge of those opinions. You are trusting in the testimony of certain people.Funny think. 10 people can read scripture and draw 10 different meanings from the passages. It doesn't mean one is right and the others are wrong.Yes, They could all be wrong, but no two can be right. And the meaning behind this phenomena's existence eludes you. It does not mean that truth is unobtainable. It means that truth is hidden and must be sought out.This argument has no resolution or correct answer.You should know better than that. If we lack the ability to resolve or find the answer, that does not indicate that there is no correct answer, it only indicates our lack of understanding. (People of this opinion are some of the most obtuse in the world because they mistake their slack and careless attitude for wisdom)It's impossible to determine facts.I see the truth in that. It depends on the degree of certainty. If you are going to try to determine fact with an absolute degree of certainty, I guarantee you will be disappointed. Just going on what I've learned from scripture, I would not even bother to look for that degree of certainty. And if you insist on that degree of certainty. I guarantee you will not be able to accept any of truth about obtaining eternal life.Look at an object like the Turin shroud, it does not prove anything, but it is suggestive, isn't it? (I presume you are appraised of the latest shroud research) You have bought into this idea that only the absolutely verifiable facts are worthy of trust. But if God exists, he is certainly hiding himself. And what can you do about that? That is one absolutely verifiable fact, if God exists, he is hiding himself.As an engineer by training and profession, it's a very unwise practice to use unsubstianted 'facts' to document new hypothese e.g. using scripture to document scripture.I have built my faith on three pillars,1) Scripture, if you are familiar with the 22nd Psalm, it is an excellent example. They pieced my hands and feet.2) Physical Evidence - of Jesus existence - The Turin Shroud, it proves nothing, but is very suggestive, combined with scripture.3) Personal Experience with the Spirit of God - In 2005 I had a supernatural experience which cured my skepticism permanently. One could question my experience, and I don't mind. It didn't happen to me for you to have faith, but for me.I don't know if you ever read about my experience but I have written of it many times.Of course a lot of people could claim to have the same things and they may disagree with my doctrine. I don't care at all. I don't stagger at that because I can only God with the light that has been given me. I really don't care if anyone agrees with me. I have to follow what I've been given. At least that is something. If I doubt what I have been given, I will only have nothing, I don't want to be clever, God will not be impressed at me for taking the things he gave me and doubting them into complete disuse. Eternal life is the prize, that is what I want. I am trying to find out what it takes to rise from the dead, as Jesus did.The actual facts have been lost over time by countless translations and intrepretations from strong willed, good intentioned and very opionated people such as yourself -and- Pastor Murray.And is that a fact? If the facts are lost. Then how do you have the fact that the facts are lost. This is not double talk. You are wrong. I'll show you.Yes, the writings haven't changed but the times have and also keep in mind that these were scribed at best several hundred years after the fact and based from oral traditions.There are no actual facts to substantiate that opinion. You have no first hand knowledge of this. This is just another opinion.No one doubts that Paul himself wrote his epistles. You can only be talking about the Gospels. If you even know what you are talking about.The earliest fragments of scripture date from the time of the Apostles. The earliest fragment of the Gospels Date to 70 AD. and this fragment is not presumed to be an original. I have seen this fragment. What have you seen?You have accepted someone's opinion, not based on facts but based on the hearing of opinions. You have accepted them based on the fact that they "seem right" to you. You have not used an absolute principle of certainty to determine if your "facts" are true.Until science can uncover tangible evidence supporting scripture, as has been going on recently, it's simply a matter of faith... a belief in something for reasons not supported by any existing facts.And you say that as if diminishing it. You forget it is not "just a matter of faith" any more than it is "just a matter of faith" that you believe gravity will continue to operate tomorrow. This may seem absurd but it is logically true. You cannot observe gravity operating tomorrow. It could fail, we cannot be 100% sure. You may clame to be sure, but it is really faith. I'm not predicting its failure. because I believe it will operate tomorrow too. But based on or past observations, we believe something about the future. That is faith, it is the persuasion of things expected in the future. As God has done things for me in my past my faith increases, and I have expectation for the future. I don't expect that to mean anything to you. I have facts which mean something to me. I have very good evidence for me. I don't seek to convince you, I preach the Gospel for those who are able to hear me. If God is gracious to you, then you will hear me. If not, then this was an interesting conversation, certainly this is a refreshingly different perspective. Because the spirit you follow is the spirit I heard for years.The thing is, I follow the writings of the apostles. I'm not trying to prove them, but to follow them. I want to obtain the promises contained in them. I accept the writings of the Apostles as they have been delivered to me. I really don't care about proving anything to anyone but myself.Some of Pastor Murray's views, in my opinion, are off the wall so to speakWell, they are more common than you might realize.as are some of yours.I'm not surprised. But you have probably spent most of your time on my Dr. Murray page, that is just my reacting to him, I have my own audio bible studies, (I recommend Matthew to you)A lot of what I've seen on your web site sounds like proverbial sour grapes.
I disagree. I stopped studying with Dr. Murray and regarded him as a false teacher fully ten years before I ever said so publicly. I only did so when I began to feel convicted that, knowing what I knew, silence was irresponsible.Pastor Murror, in this regard, sides more with my viewpoint of not pointing fingers and any one specific target.You must not listen to him very much. It is like saying that a man who attacks relativity does not find fault with Einstein. He points fingers at doctrines thereby pointing fingers at the men who teach them. His dedicated students know exactly who is getting fingered.I am of the same opinion as the Apostle Paul who openly named the enemies of the Gospel and gave instruction concerning them.He lets 'students', whatever that is, decide for themselves.He says that, but that is just PATRONIZING you. I almost can't believe a man of your intelligence bought that. Would you say, that I do not "let you" decide for yourself? I mean, this is not Catholic Europe, no one is putting the thumbscrews to anyone.John, I, the Great Paul Stringini, hereby command you do believe all my opinions and take all my decisions as your own. You cannot decide for yourself, I'll decide for you.Did that work?Again, its a matter of faith and personal opinion based on the research and depth an individual has taken the time to do.If God exists and Jesus is his son, it is much much more than that. It is not of him that wills or of him that runs but of God that shows mercy. If it was your way, then the truth would only be accessible to smart engineering types like yourself, but "God takes the wise in their own conceits." That is the part you can't bear to consider. That God might be with me, and against Murray, and you might have no way of telling the difference. That is a horrible thought. And that is the thought I tell you is true.men spned their whole lives in vain attempting to approach God in the ways you have suggested, but knowledge does not commend us to God.You aren't right but neither is he.You say to me. "I am right and you guys are wrong." You are not right. And, in that, you are the same as us. You think you have the truth. But your faith is not compelling, faith in doubt. I have tasted the powers of the world to come, and I really pity you in your skepticism, I wish I could just make you experience what I experienced.You arent wrong as he isn't either.You certainly are wrong. We can all be wrong. But we can't both be right. We can't both be "not wrong" because I say he is wrong. If I say he is wrong and he says he is right, we can't both be right.Its a matter of faith and beliefs of the individual.You want to basically say it is all meaningless. perhaps it is, but I'm pursuing eternal life and the resurrection from death, by any means. You are pursuing the absolute certainty you find with engineering. You cannot engineer your way into eternal life.Very nice to hear from you, I am so very happy to hear another perspective, I just only wish one of us could have done the other some good!Sincerely,Paul Stringini
My Second Response: edits in maroon and in ( ), as in: (this is an example of an edit)
----- Original Message -----To: Name and Address WithheldSent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 10:47 AMSubject: Re: a simple overall coment.
Hi Again, I was thinking of the gospel fragment I mentioned, since I pulled something off the top of my head (I tested this idea ten years ago, so I was guessing at the precise date, glad to say I underestimated the age of the fragments) I had to make sure I was being accurate. From the following fragments it is clear that the accounts of the life of Christ were already written down during the lifetimes of the eyewitnesses, so your faith in the "oral tradition" libel, is not based on evidence, but hear-say. You have accepted "facts" that are not factual. You are not applying the same standards of rigorous proof to the ideas you believe about Christianity as you say you use to determine my ideas are "pure faith." And I also wanted to add that my faith is certainly based evidence, but that you are either unaware this evidence or do not accept the evidence, which I find to be persuasive, and that is all faith really is in its naked form, persuasion, based on nothing or based on evidence. It is not meant to be "absolutely provable" because God does not want everyone to believe.The approximate dates of the four oldest Gospel papyri are as follows: the Qumran scroll fragment 7Q5 of St. Mark's Gospel was written sometime before A.D. 68, the Magdalen papyrus of St. Matthew's Gospel was written around A.D. 66, the fragment in Paris of St. Luke's Gospel is late 1st or early 2nd century, and the famous St. John's papyrus P52 of Manchester has a date of A.D. 120 or slightly earlier. This last Gospel fragment was previously thought to be our earliest evidence of the New Testament, but now is judged to be the most recent of these four Gospel fragments in terms of age.
Emailer's First Reply:
----- Original Message -----From: Name and Address WithheldTo: Paul StringiniSent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 7:26 PMSubject: Re: a simple overall coment.
1) how can there be a "flaw" in an opinion? there is no "correct answer" in an opinion2) you have no idea of my background in scripture, so why assume anything?3) 10 people have 10 'opinions' ... that's my point.4) you're entitled to your opinion, just as Arnold his and me mine. That's what defines the difference between a cult and a following.thanks for the comments.
Editorial Comment: The way he "thanks" me for the "comments" as if I was writing him commenting on his website is comic.
My Response: edits in maroon and in ( ), as in: (this is an example of an edit)
----- Original Message -----To: Name and Address WithheldSent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:58 AMSubject: Re: a simple overall coment.J_____,1) how can there be a "flaw" in an opinion? there is no "correct answer" in an opinionThat is completely wrong. Why do people go to a doctor for a "second opinion?" It is because the first doctor could be wrong. This statement is so manifestly wrong.An opinion is a belief not based on absolute certainty, but on what seems true or probable in ones own mind, therefore opinions are liable to be wrong, flawed, or otherwise faulty. That is why the statement, "Well that is just your opinion." is universally understood to indicate that what is said is not certain and potentially flawed.I come from the perspective that words have defined meanings. You can't just make up you own idea of what the word "opinion" means. That would make meaningful communication between human beings impossible.You must not have thought that statement through, it is completely false.
Opinions are subject to flaw, but may also be flawless and correct. Opinions can sometimes be verified or ruled out, but opinions do not hold some magical position, immune from being flawed or flawless. I think the word FANTASY fits this idea of an opinion better than the word "Opinion" Fantasies are neither objectively wrong or right, they are figments of the imagination existing in a world that is not subject to fact and verification. Opinion is totally different, opinion is the human interpretation of information, right or wrong. Opinion can be powerful or weak: I have my opinions, and the Supreme Court has theirs, right or wrong, you cannot deny the power of opinions, opinions matter.2) you have no idea of my background in scripture, so why assume anything?Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. And whatever your background in scripture is, I can tell that it was not very effectual for the truth, you say things to me which reveal more than you may realize. It doesn't matter to me what you think you know, because by your words I can tell that you don't really know anything as you ought to know it.."And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know."3) 10 people have 10 'opinions' ... that's my point.And I know ten who are of the same opinion, does that really prove anything?The reason people have different opinions is that most of the men we trust to form our opinions for us were chosen by us for that job because they seemed wisest, but God does not honor that, and casts the wise into confusion. God blinds the wise. And they are the opinion shapers in religion, so it is no marvel that everyone is in the darkness, the blind lead us and we follow them blindly."In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
4) you're entitled to your opinion, just as Arnold his and me mine. That's what defines the difference between a cult and a following.Not really, once again, (and you are not the only one that does this) people have defined cult according to their own definition (a faulty opinion) this re-defining of the word "cult" began in the 1980's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult But even under the new definition the evangelicals created, Biblical Christianity is a cult. I belong to the cult of Jesus Christ, I'm not allowed to keep my own opinions, that is the DEFINITION of the word heresy (from greek, it means to be of a different opinion).In Christianity we are called to conform ourselves to the master, to be like him, to bring ourselves into subjection to his will. To Sacrifice ourselves for his name. Chistianity is the cult of Jesus Christ. Has the meaning of "eat my body and drink my blood," been totally lost on you? It means that he is our everything.People in the west have domesticated Christianity. But in so doing thay have abandoned it's heart.Sorry I have to be so disagreeable,Sincerely,Paul
----- Original Message -----From: Name and Address WithheldTo: Paul StringiniSent: Friday, June 11, 2010 9:22 PMSubject: Re: a simple overall coment.
Simply stated, just go away. I didn't want to open a dialog or debate over semantics, qualifications, or anything else for that mater. I "felt lead" to initially offer a simple comment.
That is what I meant by "slack attitude." This guy is too smart to actually defend his very bad ideas. So I left him alone.
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