I recently started studying with Pastor Murray, I was looking for a SCN forum when I stumbled onto your website. The Shepherd's Chapel and Dr. Arnold Murray

I'm sorry this response has not been as quick as the last, but my time has been severely divided...

Mr Murray has used Ezekiel 13:20 as proof against the fly away doctrine (rapture). I have heard him reference this scripture several times. I have read and re-read and then read it again and for the life of me, I do not see where this scripture is proof against the rapture. Please don't get me wrong, I do not believe in the rapture and would love to read all the scripture I can to prove the rapture is a false doctrine but I just don't understand how this scripture benefits the argument against the doctrine. Am I missing something?

Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

This verse does not furnish evidence directly against the rapture doctrine. But it is not totally unrelated either. I will explain.

Taken as a whole, Ezekiel 13, is a prophecy against false prophets. Inasmuch as the rapture is a false prophetic vision, Ezekiel 13 applies, at least, indirectly.

"Have ye not seen a vain vision, have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say the Lord saith albeit I've not spoken.."

When men (or women) say, "The Bible says," or, "Jesus said," -- "that he would come and take his church out of the earth before the tribulation."" Then they are falsely representing what God has said. They say He says, but He has not said so.

The "fly" issue is instructive. The idea is that they (Israel) desired to escape harm by fleeing from the Babylonians. It is not always wrong to flee from a dangerous situation. I can think of numerous occasions when Jesus avoided getting killed prematurely by escaping. The Apostles did likewise:

II Cor 11:32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me: 33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

But there are also times at which we are instructed not to flee. At those times we need to stand.

In Isaiah Chapter 30, we read of how the Israelites thought to flee to Egypt for help in the face of the Assyrian invaders.

Isaiah 30:16 But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses; therefore shall ye flee: and, We will ride upon the swift; therefore shall they that pursue you be swift.

That case is similar to the case of Ezekiel 13. The idea is that the prophets sought to "sew pillows" to all God's armpits. Throughout the history of false prophets there is a common thread: False prophets often tell people what they think the listeners want to hear.

Jer 23:17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

Isaiah 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

1Kings 22:6 Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall I go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king. 7 And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might inquire of him?
8 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may inquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.

The idea in Ezekiel 13:20 is that they cover the Lord's arm joints with pillows. Basically that they make God to appear softer than he intends to make himself appear. In accentuating only soft things they distort the image of God. They sense the apprehension that the people have of the future. They encourage the people to flee from the enemy, when they were supposed to submit to his rule.

In the end times it is similar. The preaching of the rapture assures people, "no evil shall come upon you," when it is given us on behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him but to suffer also for his sake. (Phil1:29) It should be something glorious that all Christians aspire to, so live in the last days, and be witnesses for Christ. But instead, the rapture is a form of flight (in the sense of flee) They flee from the battle. But just as in the old testament, they cannot escape. it is coming.

I actually did a video of Ezekiel 13, and I do relate it to the rapture. It does not "disprove" the rapture. But it is not necessary, there are plenty of other scriptures which make the rapture doctrine impossible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-0aPlnepPM

I do have nothing against the idea of flying to meet Jesus, If I am alive when he returns, I certainly do not want to walk to Jerusalem. I also did a video of Mark 13 in which I try to portray the resurrection (the real name of the rapture) as Jesus and the Apostles taught it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka-nAx-lki8

Mr Murray has talked about murder. He has said that murder done as a crime of passion is forgiveable upon repentence but murder done out of evil cannot be forgiven until the person is judged by God after death. This makes no sense to me. I cannot find any scripture that supports this. My father was shot and killed by his business partner. I guess you could say it was a crime of passion because he was very hurt about some business decisions my father had made, hurt enough to shoot my Dad. I don't think it matters whether it is a crime of passion or done from evil, murder is still murder and always evil. Based on Murray's teachings I could reason that Cain's actions were also based on a crime of passion. Can you give me scripture that supports Mr Murray's teachings on this?

I think you are right. No, I can't support Dr. Murray's statement with scripture.

According to Christ:

Matt12:31 ...All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:

All kinds of sins are forgivable. Yet....

Gal 5:19 ...Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The work of salvation turns men from sins. I do not see any room to return.

In all fairness to Dr. Murray, the crime you describe is probably not the kind of "crime of passion" he had in mind. He is probably thinking of a father who walks in on someone in the act of raping beating his six year old daughter. I would probably become murderous in such a circumstance. The situation you describe is one of personal hurt and about money, that is dirty business. I wrestle within myself because I know that sometimes I have very violent thoughts against people who commit terrible crimes like that. I would probably want to justify myself, but God looks on the heart. I pray that I am kept from such tempting situations.

If I didn't answer this to your satisfaction let me know.

I am also confused when it comes to judging. Mr Murray says we should not judge, however, he appears to be doing a lot of judging himself. I believe there are times that we are to judge, such as when teachings are not enforced with scripture, teaching that you can get rich just by sending money(seeds) to their ministry, or teaching that you will go to Heaven just by believing in Jesus. It just appears to me that he is doing exactly what he is telling others not to do. A big contradiction in his teaching, at least in my humble opinion.

I have often said that "Judge not" is not a commandment any more than, "Go and Sin." It seems everyone takes that verse out of context.

All it really means is tat we will be judged by the same judgment that we pass on others. Judge not, if you wish to avoid being judged, because you will be judged in the same way that you judge others.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to go through life without judging. What do we think about someone who "lacks judgment?" Or what if they have "no judgment?"

Jesus said things about judgment other than "judge not" (and it is the unbelievers favorite verse)

Matt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone

Judgment is something that "ought to be done."

Jesus commanded us to judge, but in a certain way...

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

We certainly do not want to use "bad judgment."

And there is one thing I will say for CERTAIN. We will judge. We will do it. We cannot avoid it. Jesus was saying, "Use caution, be careful in judgment, it is good sometimes to reserve judgment(judge not) let you be found guilty of the same, but do judge, and do judge right" Jesus NEVER said "Thou shalt NEVER judge."

Also, most of what we do is not really judging, we don't really judge, all we are doing is repeating the judgment of God. And we know that his judgment is sure.

I don't need to judge fornicators, because God has already judged them. If I'm a fornicator, it will not save me if I "judge not." God is not going to say, "Good job Paul, because you never judged anything, I will not judge you either! Enter into paradise." It won't happen. God has already judged it, it won't help me, or anyone else, for me to conceal that fact. Most people who tell me to "judge not" don't realize that I'm not the one pronouncing judgment.

I think it is probable that Jesus had "outward appearance" and certain matters of conscience in mind when he said "judge not," It would only apply in situations where we do not know the judgment of God.

Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

Mr Murray was answering a question the other day, his response shocked me. Someone ask what we were going to do in Heaven. He answered that we would do the same things in Heaven that we do now. His example was....if you enjoy playing golf now then you will play golf in Heaven. Where does he get these teachings? He appears to assume a lot!

Imaginations. It reminds me of the people who say things like "you will be able to eat as many pastries as you want and never get fat." Christian heaven appears to be just a toned down version of the Moslem heaven. It is carnality without consequences.

Once I was talking to a friend and I said that I had always imagined that when I was heir to eternal life I would explore all the planets and moons in the universe, I wanted to climb the Icey cliffs of Europa. But then I asked whether he thought I would even care by the time I got there, that maybe it was only interesting to the flesh, maybe when I got there it would not seem exciting any more. He answered, "anything with motors, I like machines," I then realized that he had no idea what I was getting at.

Would he even care about something as simple as a machine? When I was a child I used to play for hours in front of our air conditioning unit, I would drop little sticks into the fan and play my own little imaginary games for hours. Now I'm a man, and I could never do that, I don't even understand it. I watch my kids doing their childish things and I don't feel drawn to it.

I'm pretty sure eternity will be similar. When I was a child... When I was a man, I spake as a man, but when I became a Son of God, I changed. I think we will grow up. But some thing will probably remain, maybe it will still be exciting to explore strange worlds in a body; maybe we would rather just be in the divine prescence at all times, maybe we will do both...

There has to be something to it (being in a body). Because God himself dwells in a body, and we also are supposed to. It is funny that mortal man would inquire of such things. I just want to get there, I'd rather be an immortal beggar in his kingdom than a mortal king.

I understand that you believe in speaking in tongues as do I. I was attending a church at one time where the pastor ask me not to attend the service for the upcomming Sunday. He sent people from the church to my house to request that I not attend. When that did not work he himself came to my house to again request that I not attend the upcoming service. Needless to say by this time I was curious as to why they did not want me there. The Pastor knew I had been brought up believing in tongues. His sermon was on speaking in tongues. He said that anyone that spoke in tongues was demon filled and that if you knew anyone that spoke in tongues or believed in it that you should stay as far away from them as possible. I did not re-act so Christian like. I threw my pen and stormed out of the church never to return. I tell you all this to say that I have always felt that what that Pastor was saying was a good example of the unforgivable sin. Is this an example or have I missed the boat totally.

Yikes. I was always very careful about what I said about tongues. (When I did not believe) Even Dr. Murray is careful. I never dared say it was demonic,

said that anyone that spoke in tongues was demon filled and that if you knew anyone that spoke in tongues or believed in it that you should stay as far away from them as possible.

I guess that they do not cast out devils in that church. They run from them.

That sure sounds like what Jesus said. They said he cast out devils by the devil, and your example is pretty similar. They are admitting that tongues are supernaturally inspired, but ascribe that to the devil.

At this point I am doubting Murray's teachings. I hear one voice saying to continue to listen to his teachings and trust in discernment and test his teachings, the other voice says stop listening and study for myself.

I suppose you could do both, After a while, you will find that you just can't listen anymore. A llittle leaven leavens the whole lump. A little false doctrine makes the whole thing taste bad eventually. Use discernment. I used to listen to all kinds of people, but eventually, I couldn't listen to anyone...

I feel like there is enough wrong with his teachings that I should really be afraid to continue to listen to him. Based on your experience am I over reacting?

I wouldn't be afraid, it is like Christ said, "they will drink poison," It can't hurt you if it does not enter your heart. I trust eventually you will find you are unable to listen.

Personally I prefer to listen to Dennis, he does not seem to assume as much or go off on tangents.

When I studied with the Chapel Dennis was just getting started. I''m curious to see what happens when Dr. Murray dies.

Thanks so much for your help. It is really nice to have someone to discuss this with. The SC forums do not want to hear from anyone that does not totally agree with Mr Murray's teachings. It's their way or the highway. They seem to take any disagreement as a personal attack on Mr Murray with no chance that he could be in error. Again, thanks for your time and your web site.

You are quite welcome. Yeah, I know, you are not allowed to question anything. I found that out with some of the friends I made at the chapel. But not all. Of course, the people motivated to go into discussion forums are a special class of people.

I hope some time in the future you can address some of Mr Murray's other teachings.

Name some and I'll put them on a "to-do" list.

I am glad to see that you have returned to your verse by verse bible teachings.

My wife felt that your message was an answer to her fasting and prayer. I was glad to start teaching again, this time daily. I stopped due to my departing from Spirit of truth Church. The whole thing was traumatic. I've wanted to get back to it and I confess that your message provoked me to get back to work.

I would like to also commend you on the way you handle some of the emails that you receive. Not once have I felt any spewing of hatred from you when you have been attacked for your beliefs but I have felt a lot of hatred from some of the emails that you have received from others. You must take a deep breath and count to 10 often.

That and the delete key. I try to be civil, but also firm, and, if need be, sharp and even harsh. And, occasionally, I like to tease a little. But despite their accusations, I don't hate any of them. And they do say some pretty nasty things about me that might bother me if I didn't know for myself that they were not true.

Sincerely, and thanks

Paul