----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To:XXXXX

Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 4:00 PM

Subject: Re: Shepherds chapel

Hi, It was a pleasure to hear from you, sorry this took some time, it only took me a few hours to write, but I had to find the hours first.

The things that first started to turn me off about the chapel it 
Murray's constant importance he puts on the "elect" subject. and I have 
seen first hand how this destroys his students. It is this elitism that 
has made me start to question quite a bit of his doctrines.
 
I have a very hard time believing in this "God's Elect" the way Murray 
teaches it. I actually see very little difference Biblically between the 
"elect" and the "church". I actually don't see much proof at all for 
Free-will. I'm not really sure how much free will and how much 
predestination actually plays in it all but this being ordained in the 
"world that was" seems blasphemous. maybe you can help me with this what 
is your view on the elect?
 

It is the sort of subject that is hard to just answer in a sentence or two but I'll try.  The elect are those whom God has chosen to salvation from before the foundation of the world, they did nothing to earn it, it is just something determined in the purposes of God according to his pleasure.  God is gracious.  I usually try to put the idea in perspective, because people always ask, "They why does he find fault?"  Or they accuse, "There is unrighteousness with God!" Or they complain, "Why did he make me this way?" (all from Romans 9) Because if God is choosing some to salvation, then he is also choosing others to destruction.

 

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

1Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

 

Appointed to disobey? Yes.

 

I usually tell people to consider the fact that of all the possible people who could ever exist (every possible sperm-and-egg combination) only a very small fraction ever get to exist. For example, I have six children, but I could literally father billions each one an individual, not to mention that each could have any number of twins which all would be individuals, with separate consciousnesses.  So the number of people who could exist is probably nearly infinite yet the number of people who ever get to be born is a very small fraction of that.  My point is that people who are alive have already been chosen over other people who God has not brought into being.  Is God unjust for not creating every single possible person?  No, God is not obligated to create anyone and God is not obligated to save anyone.  Out of his goodness he determined to bring souls into being which he would make into his sons, as part of the process he determined he would not just create the souls he was determining to make his sons, he also made other souls for other purposes.

 

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

That is pretty much the meaning of these verses, God endures the wicked, he made them for a purpose 'fitted to destruction' If God had determined that things would be done differently, he might not have made these souls at all.  He is still good to them.  He has given them life and speaking for myself, even if God were to reject me, I still have to say that I am thankful and that I would rather be born into this life and perish than be un-conceived.  Even if the memory of me vanishes, and I know it is vanity, but still, God has been Good to me.

 

The wicked never really see that, and it doesn't really matter because when they perish all their hatred will be forgotten.

 

From the human perspective there is no way to determine if one is of the "elect."  I might think that I am of the elect, and it is natural for man to want to assure himself, Peter said this (and I really have to quote the whole context) I think these are some of the most amazing words in scripture:

 

2Pet1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

You don't make your election sure with God, as if we were convincing him, it is to assure yourself and know that you are on the right track, becasue if we are the elect then these things have to happen to us.  Not all at once, but things have to be "added" to us. Seeing progress and ultimately obtaining all these things is the best assurance of our election we can ask for.  The elect will be diligent to do these things, to seek these things.  To be the elect we must fulfill what it is that the elect are supposed to be.  We can't remain "workers of iniquity" because all that "do such things" shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5)

 

Isn't it funny that the only time that the words "Faith alone" appear in the Bible is to say "Man is not saved by faith alone"  and Faith without works is dead?  People confuse the works of the law with the works of salvation.  The works of the law are things that man does to try to reach God, but the works of salvation are the things which God does to man in order to make man acceptable to him.

 

I agree that the elect essentially are the church, but the church is slightly more broad, ekklesia, means "called out" and remember how Jesus said "many are called but few are chosen."  The elect are the chosen, people can be part of the church for some period of time but fall away, the same cannot be said of the elect, the elect will be saved, they are the "true church."

 

Since no one really knows for sure if they are "the elect" there is really no grounds for arrogance, in fact, one of the marks of the "elect" is that they have humility.  Dr. Murray makes people's election based on whether they agree with him, that is a very poor standard compared with the one Peter gave in 2Peter1 for assuring oneself.

I do however believe in the "gap theory" and I do believe Satan rebelled 
in a former time before we where here. I don't think that if we were in 
the "world that was" that any of our actions would have any precedent in 
what we do in this earth age. and there is no Biblical proof otherwise.

 

I do not "believe in" the gap theory, I do think it is possible,  I don't "believe in" the "day-age" theory either, though that is also a possibility, I don't "believe in" the 144-hour theory either, but if that is the case then God has created the world in such a way as to deceive man, but I could accept that. 

 

What I'm saying is that I no longer think any of that is very important compared to the big issues of Judgment, Mercy, and Faith, or the foundational teachings of Christianity (Hebrews 6) or the preaching of the Gospel or the preaching of repentance.  When you think about it, it doesn't help anything except to create strife between people, and puff people up.

 

I'm very much a science buff, and it is very difficult for me to believe that the earth is 6000 years old, but I suspend judgment and consider myself and observer, a learner, I'm willing to "believe in" whatever God has done.  I'm more interested in the power issues of Christianity: power over sin, power to become the sons of God, that bean counting stuff is just a distraction.

 

Satan's rebellion?   It definitely predates the Garden of Eden.  Ezekiel 28 pretty much tells the story, as you well know.  Interesting thing about Eze28, I used to think that "till iniquity was found in thee" somehow affirmed freewill, but, really, It could just as easily be saying that Satan was created with evil in him which remained hidden until the day that it was made manifest.  That is what I am inclined to believe now; that Satan, like all the wicked, was created to be Satan.  God created an angel that would go bad.  To me, God is the ultimate power, when I say, "God is in control" I mean it.  Not like these other people who say "God is in Control", but really don't mean it, because "freewill" is really in control if there is any freewill.

 

I do not believe we (humanity) were in the "world that was" I believe that man comes into existence in his mother's womb, this is a view consistent with scripture, look at the creation of the first man:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

Man became a living soul,  man was not infused with a soul, nor was a soul implanted in him.  When the life went forth from God and into man, man became a soul, right there on the ground...which reminds me of something I recently wrote, from the page "Point by Point, Debunking Paul Stringini? Easier Said Than Done." http://oraclesofgod.org/emails/debunker001.htm

 

The bible teaches that our lives begin in our mother's womb, no earlier time is ever mentioned for our beginnings.  The bible always talks about us as having originated from our mother's womb, never as having originated from somewhere else, and being implanted there, the only case of that would be Christ.

John3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Dr. Murray correctly states that "again" in "born again" can also mean "from above."  But he then goes on to say (perversely) that Jesus is indicating that, in order to be saved; our angelic persons, which we once were, have to come down from heaven ("from above" ) and be "born innocent of woman," and live in this flesh age, again, in order to be saved.

That is not what Jesus was saying.  Pardon me, but that is a stinking load of crap, and no one should have to smell it.  We do have to be "born from above," but Dr. Murray completely botches the simple language that Jesus uses;  "You must be born again" indicates some thing that we lack.  Dr. Murray treats it like Jesus was informing us of something we already possess, but are ignorant of, as if saying, "You must realize you were born from above; we were all born from above."  But that is just devilish.  He usually throws in the 'angels that sinned' here as proof, claiming that their sin was that they did not submit to being born in flesh bodies, so they cannot be saved.  But he has left the teachings of Jesus Christ far behind by that point

Verse thirteen from John Chapter 3 is clear, Jesus alone is "he that came down from heaven" to be born of woman. No one else ever has. 

Also, the phrase "so is every one that is born of the Spirit." from John 3:8 implies that "born from above" is not a universal phenomena.  If Jesus was trying to communicate that it was; he could have said, "everyone is born from above."

Whenever the scriptures wish to refer to the earliest possible time in someone's life, they unerringly refer to the womb:

Ps 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly

Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb,

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb,

Isa 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Dr. Murray actually uses Jeremiah 1 to back up his claims; claiming that God knew Jeremiah before he was born because Jeremiah had existed in that angelic age.  But God here is speaking of the womb as the earliest period in Jeremiah's existence, Jeremiah was "formed in the womb,"  not just his body, but the person, Jeremiah.  God Formed him in the womb and Jeremiah became a living soul, his body was not infused with a soul, the formation of the body and the bringing to life was the act of creation for Jeremiah. "

From Jeremiah's perspective, the perspective of his beginning, the womb is the starting point, of course, from God's perspective, it starts earlier, but the knowledge of God is so broad that the question "Is there anything that God does not know?" has no answer.  So of course God knows us before we are born, but he does not form us in heaven, he forms us in the belly. 

I believe this is clearly the teaching of scripture, Jesus is HE that came down from heaven, the only one who has ascended into heaven (permanently, in victory) At this point people usually bring up Elijah and Enoch, as if two exceptions can break the rule for everyone else.  The Gospel says, "No one has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down... the son of man"  If upon hearing this our instinct is to doubt, and dispute, "Wait a minute John, Elijah ascended up to Heaven, maybe Enoch too (there is less info on Enoch)" then we ought to remember that it is the scriptures we are contending with.  Even if there are two exceptions to what John wrote, that still cannot make the words of the Apostle mean that "everyone came down from heaven and everyone goes up to heaven"  because, if that was so, then there would be nothing special about Elijah or Enoch, except that they did not leave their bodies behind when they went up, but that is a distinction without a difference if "everyone descends from and ascends to heaven," in any real sense.  Personally, I take the words of an Apostle of jesus Christ as authoritituve on the subject, whatever we think we have read about Elijah and Enoch ought to be tempered by the words of in the Gospel (not the reverse), so, as a rule: no one goes up to heaven, except the one who came down from heaven, Jesus Christ, which is in Heaven.  That is really a very simple, clear verse.

I have thought through this subject extensively and have answers to any question you can think of (yes, even the souls under the altar, the thief on the cross, and the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich man)

 

I do not believe in anyway in a Pre-trib rapture. I believe a pre-trib 
rapture CANNOT be proved scripturally with any ounce of merit.

 

I agree, too bad Dr. Murray does not apply that standard to everything he teaches.  But I do think he gets the ressurection wrong too, saying it is already passed, asserting of the dead that "They are with him." 

I agree, and I was the same, I counted myself very strong in the issue of the serpent seed. I think the key to the whole "seeds issue" is 1 John 3 which makes it very clear that it has to be considered a spiritual issue.  The serpent's seed are those who do iniquity, the seed of promise is Christ. That is the correct interpretation of Gen 3:15 confirmed by 1John 3

 

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Why create and entirely obscure narrative about sex when the Apostles have already explained the issue of seeds? Cain was "of Satan" because of his sin. Abel and Seth Were of God because of the imputed righteousness, "God had respect unto Abel".  They are the appointed seed, appointed to be the line of Christ.

Genesis 3:15 is a sort of cryptic "dark saying" it has to be interpreted in light of something clear, like what the Apostle John said, I mean, that could not be more clear.

 

When you think about it, the scariest thing about the way Dr. Murray approaches Genesis is that he is basically telling you, "You can't believe everything you read."  I mean, here is something I said from the same webpage mentioned above,

 

 

What was the intent of the writer of Genesis, what was he trying to communicate.  And then, if there are cryptic sayings, we should look to the Prophets and the Apostles of our Lord before we start making up our own interpretations or, God forbid, changing the whole story. Think of the nerve!

 

I do believe that souls will be tormented(a sub-set), and subsequently put to death(with the rest of those judged worthy of death), there are certainly passages that talk about them being tormented, you probably agree, I know what you meant, and, in that case, I agree. 

 

I do think Dr. Murray is wrong about Death though, and really, if the second death and the first death are more similar, I think that makes the whole doctrine more simple and elegant.  The first death is unconsciousness and void, interrupted only by resurrection, the second death is the same, but no resurrection is to be expected.

 

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

It seems like no one believes in that anymore, they think all the dead have already been raptured off to heaven (that is what I think of Dr. Murray's doctrine of where the dead are, just another rapture doctrine) I have written more on that subject, If you are interested, I can give you the full treatment.

 

 

Amen to that.  That was the first thing that made me think that Dr. Murray was not what I thought he was.

 

 it is impossible for us to be in the 5th trump.

 

Did you ever study his 1981 fumble?  (I have a new page dedicated to it) I think the whole "we're in the fifth trump" thing must be some sort of justification of based on something having to have started in 1981, just a guess there.

 

 

Honestly, I'd be disappointed if the tribulation was only five months, that is a sissy tribulation, how will the end-time prophets ever compare to the ancient prophets if all they have to do is hang on for five measly little months?

 

I believe that we will know the end has begun when be begin to see the trumpets sound (funny: see the sound?) In any case, "if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?"  The trumpets have to be clear signals from God, so I expect the first four will be literal or at least very obvious, and the symbology of the fifth and sixth will be clear to the wise when they sound.

 

I don't think it is important to know, in detail, what is going to happen, one-worldism, whatever, if we are still in our sins, then Satan already has us, no matter what we think we know.  If I am still subject to the lust of women, Satan can just offer me women, more women, and more beautiful women, and I will be his.  If we want to "stand in the evil day"  knowing "who the kenites are" or who is going to make war with who, is just pathetic and will not protect us.  I suggest we revisit 2Peter Chapter 1....that is how you prepare for the end times.

 

My approach to prophecy in general is to be well familiarized with the prophetic scriptures, I've memorized Revelation, (if you didn't notice, the main part of my webpage is all about the music I create from the bible, you need to check it out, I did the whole book of Revelation)  If we know the prophetic scriptures then when the time is right God will quicken our understanding.  There is no greater comedy/tragedy (take your pick) than a bunch of false teachers running around trying to teach what the end-time prophecies of Daniel mean, when the book of Daniel plainly states that it will only be understood at the end, and we obviously are not there yet, so in the meantime, if we are really worried about prophecies, I suggest committing Daniel and the rest of the Prophets to memory, that, and we need to get our act together and put on the Spirit, virtue, godliness, and righteousness.  These gifts of God will be our greatest protection against the time to come.

Also is Antichrist a man or Satan himself?

 

I don't know.  But it really will come down to whether or not I serve Satan through sin, or God through righteousness.  That's whose child I am. I believe that.  I will not be surprised by either possibility, or even a false anti-christ.  (Ie a man who appears to be antichrist, followed by Satan appearing to be the Lord)

 

well we read in revelation 13 
that the 1st beast was given a mouth that speaks. and that is before 2nd 
beast appears. you can read that in Daniel as well. In Daniel we read 
that the Vile one does many things before he claims to be the Messiah of 
the world. I think this maybe in the form of a man. I believe that there 
is a possibility that a man will come first then Satan will claim to be 
the messiah of the world. What is your take on it?
 
I kind of already gave it above, you ought to know the scriptures, but don't be distracted from the true distinction between the children of God and the children of Satan.  The seeds doctrine is very important, we have to have the seed of God in us, it has to remain in us.  Whatever the cost, we must obtain that.  If it was important to be able to sort out all those details in prophecy then I would certainly look to that, but that is not where the danger is.  People think that if they "figure it out" they will be safe, but their already deceived.

 

 

yeah, that one is weird, the way it happened is weird, but I have to follow what God is leading me in, even if it isn't God who is leading me, what can I do?  If God has given me up to some other spirit, I'm finished already.

 

March 19th 2005, two young men arrive at my home (fans of my music, http://oraclesofgod.org) They come from a church up in Wisconsin, about two hours away, they wanted to meet me and have me come play at their church, one of them, the pastors son, gives me their "Foundation of Christian Doctrine" I skim it over while they sleep that night, and find that I "pretty much" agree with all of it, except for the part about tongues, the next morning I go to their church and play the songs Ezekiel Chapter 13 and John Chapter 15, and I listen to the preacher (you can actually look up the very sermon I heard on http://spiritoftruthchurch.org (this sermon is no longer available) look in the sermons section under 2005 and look up the date Sunday March 20th and the sermon was titled "Resist in the Faith")  The message impressed me, the preaching, the thing that stuck with me was the line, "This is what righteousness is, if you do not fulfill it, your sin remains" 

 

It really spoke to me because I had a long-time drug and alcohol problem, plus smoking and pornography (and much much more!) It was a real drag on my life and I hated it, I hated the sins.  Anyway, after the sermon I went over to the pastors house and without going into all that, I really liked the guy.  I almost felt anxious to leave, I wanted to be alone, I went home and decided that I wanted to re-read the "Foundation" thing again to make sure that I really agreed with what it said and I found that I did, except the part about tongues.  I had taught against tongues for years.  But I felt like I was lacking something, not tongues, maybe the Holy Spirit, nothing had ever happened to me where I could point to some particular day and say, "That was the day I recieved the baptism of the Holy Spirit." It was something I often wondered about because sin was a very dibilitating part of my life, it was really dragging me down,  I had even prayed many times, "If I am lacking your spirit, give it to me now." and other varieties seeking the spirit or just looking for deliverance from sin.  For over ten years nothing had ever happened.

 

The next morning I told my wife that I had to go back to Lyons, WI because I wanted to have the Pastor there lay hands on me and see if I couldn't get the Holy Spirit for the deliverance from sin, I called the Pastor and told him I had to come, I drove the hundred miles, I sat in the Pastor's office and talked about my situation, I told him "I agree with your foundational doctrines, but not with tongues, I've never believed in that, If God wants me to speak with tongues he is going to have to force me to do it."

 

After I was done talking about all the things that troubled me I asked them (The Pastor had called the two young men who had first brought me to the church) if they would lay their hands on me and pray that I might recieve the Holy Spirit of God.  We stood at the front of the church, just the four of us in the empty building and they began to pray, the pastor spoke in english at first and the two young men started immediately with tongues, after a few minutes I thought, "This is stupid, I'm going to stand here all day like an idiot and nothing is going to happen." but then I immediately tried to encourage myself, "I can't be like that I have to have a little faith," I thought, then I said , very simply, "Lord jesus, Grant me my heart's desire. And immediately something started to happen to my hands, they began to feel like they were vibrating at a very intense frequency, I had not been holding them up in any particular way either, they merely hung at my sides, and we had only been there a few minutes, I said "What is happening to my hands?" The Pastor told me to keep praying, but I was too interested in my hands, I wanted to see if I could make them stop feeling that way, so I tried touching different things and I moved them about, to see if it was just something I could stop by physiological means, It kept on going, I put my hand on the pator and it immediately stopped, when I drew it away it immediately started full force, and I put it on him again and it stopped again, I repeated this three or four times, I was very curious about it, then my ears began to have the same feeling come over them (right now I'm not clear on the order, I'd have to look up my testimony I wrote, but the feet may have been next or before the ears or last I forget, but I think last)  

 

Anyway, after my ears it went to my lips and now my lips were pulsating with this feeling and they began to twitch uncontrollably, like an eye tick or something, totally involuntarily, they just started twitching and moving subtly, not seeming to form words, they were moving randomly without the use of any of my muscles,  I really began to feel that God was doing something to me, I tried to speak but it was totally messed up,  I went to my knees and I was going to thank and praise him but nonsense came out and I couldn't stop talking nonsense, and then it hit my feet (I have interpretations for what that all meant)  and the rest is history.

 

I really don't expect that to mean anything to you, but you asked how I justify it, and that is how; It just happened to me, that's all, I really would not expect anything less to convince you, than for the same thing to happen to you. 

 

I do believe, of course that it can also be backed up by scripture, in fact I do not believe any other interpretation of tongues makes any sense at all with scripture.  If you are still interested I can go into this more, I've become very adept in this subject.

 

Also, I have reaped so much from that day, I never drank again, never smoked pot agian (never abused over-the-counter drugs anymore either) I soon quit smoking, I had a lust holiday of six months, (but alas, lust was not dead, yet it too shall die, this I believe)  I gained so much wisdom and understanding in the scripture, overnight, many thing crystalized before me. etc etc etc...

 

 

I don't, it is the same thing.  There were many instances of tongues in Acts,  and it is not always clear that everyone understands what is being said.   It is one thing if a bunch of foriegn language speaking people hear  their own language from Gallileans, but what if people who all spoke the same language spoke tongues around eachother?  How would they know it was tongues if it came out as normal speech?  How do I know I'm speaking in toingues if all I can hear is my own dialect?

 

In church I have heard people speaking in tongues and understood what they said because they said it in German, I do not natively speak German, I can hardly understand it at all, but my mother and her side of the family do, and I heard it growing up all my life, the person in question had no idea they were speaking in German but I distinctly heard it, distinctly. I wonder if any one else was listening what they would have heard?  I'm not the only one who has reported hearing things in languages not being used by the speakers in church.

 

From experience, I believe that tonges can be understood or not understood, it depends, there had to be a purpose behind each, the Spirit gives the utterance, so it is a form of speech which does not arise by the intent of the speaker but from God.  I believe that this can all be justified from scripture, and if you write me back I will do my best to satisfy your interest.

 

 

It is weird, but it is edifying, tongues are powerful in the spirit, I don't know what else to tell you. "My spirit prayeth but my understanding is unfruitful."

 

I have been a 
Christian for many years and have never been compelled to speak this 
"language" nor do I see any good it would do?
 
Fortunately for me, I did not have to understand or believe the gift of the Holy Ghost in order to recieve and benefit from it.  I hope the Lord has similar plans for you.

I am still a learning Christian and all i want is truth. I am afraid of 
being deceived.

]

I'm a learner too, and I don't want to deceive you, but I don't have any control over that, all I can do is speak the things God has given me, or that I think he has given me, if they have come from some other spirit then what can I do?  In that case, God has suffered me to receive another spirit, which leads me to error, so what can I do but follow it since I believe with all my heart that God has sent it?  Deceived people always believe that they are following the truth.  The way i see it is that I was deceived already, sin deceived me, Dr. Murray deceived me but God delievered me out of it all, so i count on Him to deliver me from any future deceptions.

 

 

It was ten years after I left off studying with the Shepherds Chapel before I could speak against it, I had a lot of affection for Dr. Murray, I had studied with him night and day.  To this day I occasionally feel a little emotional response, like when I watched my wedding video recently, that what I'm doing is dirty.  But really, I can't excuse the errors, I don't think Dr. Murray does it on purpose, I think he'd sooner be dead, but he is deceived and deceiving people whether he likes it or not.  And despite his entreaty God is not going to strike him dead until he is finished with his work.

 

Eze14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. 10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;

 

 

Eventually I had to unlearn everything and relearn it from the ground up, which was no easy task at first, but I learned to let go.  The reason people believe that the stroy of the Garden of eden is just an illusion is because they have been conditioned to see it that way.  Dr. Murray suggests things may be so, and people begin to believe them, since you have been a long-time Chapel student, do you remember how Dr. Murray used to merely suggest that more people may have been on the Ark?  Maybe he still teaches it that way, but I still remember back when he sort of used to fudge that as a sort of "plan b" to the local flood, both are ridiculous, at least according to the people who wrote the scriptures. 

 

I came to hold the doctrine that the scriptures' testimony is to be preferred over doctrines which seek to contradict the scriptures, if something which is plainly said, has to be contradicted (such as 8 souls saved by water) there has to be an overwhelming amount of evidence in scripture to the contrary.  You can't just say that Eve had sex with Satan and concieved Cain because of 2Cor11 saying she was "seduced," a Greek word that does not indicate sexual seduction " and numerous other scriptures which give feathery light support to such a re-write of Genesis 3.

 

Look at all the uses of Exapatao:

 

Ro7:11 deceived me and by it slew me

Ro16:18 deceive the hearts of the simple

1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself

2Co11:3 as the serpent beguiled (deceived) eve

2Thess2:3 Let no mand deceive you by any

 

Not a hint of sex

 

Exapatao is a compound word from ex meaning "out, from" and apatao meaning to delude, cheat, or decieve, "Exapatao" basically means "Out-cheated" like Out-run, Out-fight, Out-spit, Out-shoot etc. it never means to seduce sexually, ever, wholly seduced, fine, sure, maybe, but in english that is way too suggestive these days, when we say "seduced" in modern English, sex is implied, it was never so for Exapatao. 

 

Here are the uses of Apatao the root of Exapatao

 

Eph5:6let no man deceive you with

1Tim2:14Adam was not deceived...womann being deceived ...that one is downright interesting

Js 1:26 his tongue, but deceiveth his own

 

Those are all the uses, notice how it was said that Adam WAS NOT deceived (read "seduced") But according to Genesis , he ate the same fruit that Eve ate, and people suggest to me all the time that there is more there than meets the eye and I say "hogwash."

 

Ok I digressed a little there, but my point being that in order to erase the plain meaning of a passage, one has to have big reasons, I mean scriptures that outright contradict.  Like Lazarus and the Rich Man,  the Psalms say that in the day that men die their thoughts perish, etc etc.  The Apostles and Jesus taught that the dead are waiting for the resurrection, "David is not ascended into the heavens...he is both dead and buried"  Those are good reasons to reject what you see in that parable, plus it is a parable, not a narrative, not an exposition.  I have a Paper I wrote on the Subject.  Ask and I will send it to you.

 

 

I know that's true.

 

where is a good church? how can 
I find one.

 

Obviously, I go to the church where I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, that is the best church I have ever found, go to the website http://spiritoftruthchurch.org and look at the "Doctrinal Foundation" area.  See what you think. (I left Spirit of Truth Church in May 2009, resigned as church webmaster and dissassociated myself from it's ministry)

 

Even so, in the church I belong to we still do many things by tradition, and I wonder about those things, but I know of no other church where if error is found there is a better chance that the error will be reformed. 

 

How do you find a church?  You will have to be led to one by God.

 

I still love the Chapel but I cannot deny what the Bible 
says and it simply does not agree with Murray all the time so I have no 
other option but to believe the Bible.
 

That is reasonable.

I am in a bit of tumult right now. How do I find real Truth??

The real truth cannot be found, it has to be given, and after it has been given, man declares, "I have found it!"  We are a funny thing, humanity.   But seek and you will find, ask and it will be answered; the one who knocks gets to come in.  Not always as quickly as man would like (this is so those who are supposed to give up can give up and go away).  Even so, if God has put a heart in you to truly seek the truth, then you will not fail to find it.  I know how I found the truth, I can tell you all about that, but how do you find the truth? I know God will reveal that to you.

 

Sincerely,

Paul

----- Original Message -----

From:XXXX

To: Paul Stringini

Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:05 PM

Subject: Re: Shepherds chapel

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Stringini

To:XXXXXX

Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 7:26 PM

Subject: Re: Shepherds chapel

As an addendum

 

Any similarities between me and a Clavinist are purely coincidental, I arrived at my position independantly, there would be many places where we would disagree, I think they believe in salvation by "accepting the Lord as your Savior" and I do not.   They believe in "once saved always saved" and I say how does one know he is really going to be saved until his life is finished.  All they do is assure themselves of promises that may not be for them.

 

I see no room for freewill because the prescence of any "freewill," even partial freewill, makes predestination impossible, think about it.   I take the position that humans do make choices but that these choices are predetermined by the very nature of the human beings that make them.  But it is manifest that the will of man is not free, the Apostle Paul, in Romans chapter seven really makes that clear.

 

Rom7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

 

If man had a will that was free, then he would be able to to everything he wanted, (even if he could do everything he wanted, it would not prove that man had a free will, just that this would cease to be a good argument against freewill, it would still be said that man's doing what he wants is a product of the being he was created as to be)  

 

The bondage of the will of man is clearly seen in sin, but in many other ways as well.  We are who we are because we were created who we are.  We cannot be someone else, we may undergoe changes, but these are part of our God-given nature 

 

One of my favorite verses:

 

1Cor4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

 

Why is it that one person receives the Gospel and another finds it ridiculous, stupid, nonsense, evil (pick)?  What did I do to myself in order to make myself a lover of the things of God? and how come other people have absolutely no interest? What makes me different? Am i just smarter?  Dumber?  These factors are completely out of our control, whatever sense of "free will" we have is purely a product of our own vanity, and not real, in any sense.

 

All the choices we make are colored by our own perceptions, for good or ill.  really, there is nothing which we have, ability, thought, desire, that was not given.

 

I could go on, I'll just wait for you,

Paul