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From the Same Person as 27 and 28: Kenites, Israel, Election, and Attitude, in Multiple Parts
How Do you Interpret Psalm 82?
This sequence of messages (starting with #40g)is somewhat disjointed. I can't seem to find all of the replys I made to these, if they were made at all. I am writing this March 17 2010, a year after the original exchange. I have been able to reconstruct some but I don't know where all of my replies are, and I'm reasonably sure that I did not reply to all of these at the time, though I am also sure that I was having computer problems at the time and lost a weeks worth of email. This emailer had become more and more focused on me personally; as opposed to the declared purpose and subject of this page, which is to discuss what I think are the false doctrines of the Shepherd's Chapel. When one is being attacked personally, there is a point at which too vigorous a defense is not appropriate. On the other hand, some charges must be answered lest silence be mistaken for assent. I try my best to judge which is the best course at the appropriate time.
The Question/Comment:
My First Response:edits in maroon and in ( ), as in: (this is an example of an edit)
But the references to "gods" have to by interpreted symbolically or as a figure of speech, he called them gods, but they were not gods, God called Jacob a "worm" but Jacob is not literally a "worm" The new testament teaches that we are given power to BECOME the sons of God
1Jn3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
John1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Ro8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. So, in theory we have been declared to be the sons of God , called such, given promises to that end, given the3 earnest of the Spirit, but... "it doth not yet appear."
I used to look at this one and it really seemed like it said a lot, but I was just reading too much into it. Dr. Murray colors the perceptions of the people who follow him, they see his story in the scriptures the way I can make you see a dragon in the clouds, by suggesting to you that it is there and by you being willing to see it.
In these verses we are led to believe that God is pronouncing judgment on the Angelic host and condemning them to die in the flesh as part of the lesson of this earth age.
Well, that is the way I took it. But really this is just a simple case of taking things out of context
Psalm 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
The second and third verses make it clear that this Psalm is in reference to earthly affairs and the men who rule in the Earth, but especially to the rulers of Israel. In the old testament the only people who God ever referred to as his children were the people of Israel.
And when people stand in the stead of God, handing down life and death, it is not unusual for God to call them "gods."
Ex7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Referring to these earthly leaders as "gods" is an acknowledging of the power they have over the people, and is further reinforced by the admonishment to "deliver the oppressed" and etc.
The "all of you are children of the most high," refers to all the children of Israel, and he is reminding the judges and rulers that they are all part of that covenant and that they all shall die and be judged by the judge of all nations.
This has nothing to do with any "world that was."
John3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Dr. Murray correctly states that "again" in "born again" can also mean "from above." But he then goes on to say (perversely) that Jesus is indicating that, in order to be saved; our angelic persons, which we once were, have to come down from heaven ("from above" ) and be "born innocent of woman," and live in this flesh age, again, in order to be saved.That is not what Jesus was saying. Pardon me, but that is a stinking load of crap, and no one should have to smell it. We do have to be "born from above," but Dr. Murray completely botches the simple language that Jesus uses; "You must be born again" indicates some thing that we lack. Dr. Murray treats it like Jesus was informing us of something we already possess, but are ignorant of, as if saying, "You must realize you were born from above; we were all born from above." But that is just devilish. He usually throws in the 'angels that sinned' here as proof, claiming that their sin was that they did not submit to being born in flesh bodies, so they cannot be saved. But he has left the teachings of Jesus Christ far behind by that pointVerse thirteen from John Chapter 3 is clear, Jesus alone is "he that came down from heaven" to be born of woman. No one else ever has. Also, the phrase "so is every one that is born of the Spirit." from John 3:8 implies that "born from above" is not a universal phenomena. If Jesus was trying to communicate that it was; he could have said, "everyone is born from above."Whenever the scriptures wish to refer to the earliest possible time in someone's life, they unerringly refer to the womb:Ps 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly
Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb,
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb,
Isa 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Dr. Murray actually uses Jeremiah 1 to back up his claims; claiming that God knew Jeremiah before he was born because Jeremiah had existed in that angelic age. But God here is speaking of the womb as the earliest period in Jeremiah's existence, Jeremiah was "formed in the womb," not just his body, but the person, Jeremiah. God Formed him in the womb and Jeremiah became a living soul, his body was not infused with a soul, the formation of the body and the bringing to life was the act of creation for Jeremiah.
The foreknowledge of God does not give us any cause to suppose Jeremiah had existed in an angelic body prior to this genesis spoken of in this verse. I suppose it could mean that, but that would really be pushing the issue, you have to have a very compelling reason to make an interpretation like that, such as some good collaborating scriptures, which we have not found. Dr. Murray's students become conditioned so that it becomes very difficult to see it any other way.
My Editorial Response (not via e-mail):
This message was not emailed to this person but was written 3/2010 (a year after the exchange ended), in answer to several of the questions he raised which I thought were worth responding to.
First of all, this was his original question: "What do you make of the following verses ? " i.e. Ps 82 & etc.
My thought-out answer would be that I do not make anything of them. Unlike some who make false doctrines of them. Unlike some who make much of little and are carried away with speculation. I make nothing more of them than that they say. And I limit it to what is said and what was intended. That is it.
You do have this fixation with debunking AM. I was asking you for your opinion,I want to know what Paul Stringini thinks .
That is fine but this forum is for discussing the doctrines of "AM." Not for Mr. XXX to drill me for information and opinions irrelevant to that discussion. The question is not "what does Paul think about x" the question here is whether or not the doctrines of the Shepherd's Chapel are biblical. When this fellow asks me about Psalm 82, that is the way I look at it. I've begun to see that some people are coming to me for more information than that, but this fellow does not happen to be one of them. The biggest point of hypocrisy from this gentleman is that he is pretending to actually value what I might have to say. But he is contentious. He comes to me the way the pharisees approached Christ. He is hostile. Seeking to catch me in my words. Why does he want to know what I think? It is quite clear he does not much value my opinions, he doesn't like the things I think about things that he cannot win against me so he has gone on a fishing expedition to try to find some area in which he might get an advantage over me. It is just one mass of hostility.
Do not take me for such a fool Paul as to even imagine, that I would think that in the flesh men could be as gods.
I hadn't said that, notice how he avoids confronting what I did say, by falsely asserting I said something I did not.
I want to know what Paul Stringini thinks about what it means to be one with God,to be a son of God, to be in the God family,in the family of and with God.What does it mean to be part of the royal family of God being a ruler in his government as a son of God.
Well, if that is what he wanted to know he should have asked that. He just dropped a scripture on me and asked "what do you think?" I have a lot of thoughts and I gave him a good helpping of them. One cannot ignore when discussing Psalm 82 the great emphasis placed on it in the formulation of the Shepherd's Chapel doctrine of preexistence. So when I think of Psalm 82, I do think of Murray. But my opinions are also in what I wrote. I did answer his original question.
Back in 2009 I did not have audio bible studies by which I might instruct people like this individual who "only want to know what Paul Stringini thinks." (yes, I am being sarcastic) So now I will merely refer his other questions (just above) to those studies.
Well you cant have it both ways Paul,either the saints become one with God or they don't,
Of course they do, but since I do not know what that specifically entails, why do you ask me? This is the thing that irks me with people like this. They are so fucused on issues which have no bearing on us unless we overcome. THEY ARE TOO HIGH. I let the scriptures stand as they are. But I'm not going to start speculating based on the hints given in scripture.
I ask you do those who overcome become as one of the angels
Jesus said that in the resurrection we would be "as the angels" in that we would neither marry nor be given in marriage. Beyond what has been said in the scriptures I cannot speculate.
and become part of the elohiem.
I prefer what Paul called "great plainness of speech" to this kind of hocus-pocus, I do not know what he means by that, I could begin guessing (and I have several ideas) but every time I guess at what he might mean in some cryptic saying of his, he gets offended and claims I'm making him out to be stupid. Pass.
Do they sit in judgment over the angels.
Paul said as much, why does this person consult me on the anser to this question, it is obvious he knows the answer. But what do the answers add up to? They do not ass up to the doctrines of Dr. Murray, as for this person, who knows what he is thinking, he only wants to know my thoughts.
Do they become administrators in Gods government in both heaven and earth?
Pass. I pass on these questions because he has the cart before the horse, he counts his chickens before they hatch. It is a foolish way to approach the bible.
In my opinion those questions can not be answered in allegorical terms ,
Nor need they be answered at all in order to overcome.
for some day those promises will become fact for they will rule and sit in judgment of their peers.
Good luck with that, XXX.
And I am not saying that the saints are peers of God for that is how satan fell from grace.
What? I do not think so.
Is Christ not the first of many sons of God,
Well, I don't like to phrase things the way this guy does. And I'm not a mind reader and this is not 20 questions.
Christ has power to perform miracles and forgive sin. Is it not a miracle for the symbolic worm to become a son of God,is it not a miracle that the symbolic worm has been given power to become a son of God?
Allegories and symbols. Ok. Yes. Whatever.
Has God not given the flesh worm the power to become a God like spirit,upon knowing the truth.?
No, this is wrong. This is stated wrong. No.
It could be said that knowing the truth is that power to become a son of God,for is there not power in the knowledge of truth ?
What is truth then? Such power does not come by merely any truth, it is by specific truth. The questions of angels and administrations and elohim, are not the kind of truths that save anyone. In other words, I cannot tell what he means by all this.
Surly Paul if man is made in the image of God ,then once a man has become a son of God (spirit man) that said person would have God like qualities or if you like the qualities of God ? And I am not saying that spirit man has the mind of God in all knowledge, understanding and power.
I am surly, and it is because I can't tell what he means by all this. And I'm tired of it.
Yes it is presumptuous,prideful,arrogant and evil for flesh man (the worm) to think of himself a god but its not presumptuous prideful arrogant and evil for God to say I will give you power to become a son of God.(spirit man).
Well, I do understand that part, and I agree except for the parts he puts in parenthesis i.e. (spirit man) (the worm) These are unnecessary.
Man must accept with grace that great honor God has bestowed upon him.
The man on whom it is bestowed must, yes. Not mankind. Not "Man" but the man whom.
82:1 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods
Is it fact or allegory ? Is it truth or fiction?
If he could have told me his answers to those questions then I would have told him my answers to those questions. But they are complex questions.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God and it DOTH NOT YET APPEAR WHAT WE SHALL BE. But we know that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 1John Ch 3
Some people think they know more about "what we shall be"' than the Apostles themselves did, I am not one of them, GET IT?
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