Return to Oraclesofgod.org
Return to "The Shepherd's Chapel and Dr. Arnold Murray" Main Page
From the Same Person as 27 and 28: Kenites, Israel, Election, and Attitude, in Multiple Parts
Predestination: Throwing Other People's Corrupt Writings Into the Ring
----- Original Message -----From: Name And Address WithheldTo: Undisclosed-Recipient:; (Paul Stringini)Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 1:05 PMWhat Is “Predestination”?September 12, 2008 | From theTrumpet.comDoes the Bible say we are prejudged before we are born? Has God already decided if humans are guilty or innocent even before they act? By Eric Anderson
What exactly is “predestination?” Only two passages in all the Bible—Romans 8 and Ephesians 1—mention the word “predestinate.” The root word comes from the Greek proorizo, translated “ordain” or “predetermine.” Each time, it denotes a unique group of people—called ahead of the rest of humanity—for a royal purpose!
Predestination plays a vital role in God’s majestic plan for mankind. Romans 11 shows that only a few are called now to repentance, faith in Christ, and spiritual salvation with eternal life. Those who are predestined are pre-called—not prejudged or pre-condemned. Some erroneously assume God has decided our fate already. They do not understand that man is created with free will—not simply to be a string puppet in the theater of life.
So who are the predestined? The answer is revealed in the book of Ephesians. “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 1:1). Notice to whom the Apostle Paul is speaking. Here, he is addressing the truly converted saints who are faithful in Jesus Christ. He is not speaking of the general population. More on this later.
Who, then, are these chosen saints? Essentially, they are the spiritually begotten, Spirit-led sons of Almighty God (Romans 8:14). They are the specially chosen firstfruits who will soon reign with Jesus Christ on His throne during the Millennium (Revelation 3:21; 2:26-27). They are the affianced Bride of Christ—preparing to marry into the God Family. What an honorable assembly! It is no wonder why Satan, for thousands of years, has so diligently striven to mask the truth concerning this issue!
Now when were these saints chosen? Paul explains: “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world …” (Ephesians 1:4). Here is the key. Even before the foundation of this world, God had prearranged to call a select group of people and open their minds to spiritual truth. That such a group would exist was decided before the world was founded—before anyone in that group was born! So in that sense, God “foreknew” those whom He would call, though it is not indicated that specific knowledge of specific persons was involved.
Why were these saints chosen? Here is the primary reason: “That we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption [sonship] of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will” (verses 4-5). Clearly, the “saints” were selected to become actual sons of the Most High!
Let’s continue reading verses 11 through 12: “In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.”
It was predestined that those who “first trusted in Christ” would receive an inheritance. The “firstfruits,” as Herbert Armstrong often reminded us, are now only heirs—not yet inheritors (Romans 8:17). Although God’s overall plan is fixed, the position of each person has not yet been determined. They still are required to do something.
Mr. Armstrong wrote, “Those called now are called for the purpose of getting a job done. They are given the Holy Spirit for that purpose” (Plain Truth, November 1976). He went on to mention that the job of every one of us is to help support God’s work!
So, is predestination unfair? Is it unfair that only a handful of people are called out of spiritual darkness now—ahead of the rest of humanity? No. God will eventually offer the opportunity for salvation to every human being, as He brings to fruition His 7,000-year master plan. Until then, those who are called now must finish the work—for the whole universe longingly awaits the revealing of the sons of God! (See Romans 8:19.) That is the meaning of predestination.
My First Response: edits in maroon and in ( ), as in: (this is an example of an edit)
----- Original Message -----To:Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 3:28 PMSubject: Re:
XXXX This will not be posted unless you start arguing with me.This is a false and perverted narrative way of undermining the word of God, ignoring all the critical texts, using suppositions, man's wisdom, etc etc.Basically the idea with this trash is that the PEOPLE are not predestinated, it is the consequences of the choices that they make that are predestinated. "The soul that sins, it shall die" according to this pervert, that is predestination.None of that tripe works at all when you read Romans 9. He never touches Romans nine, it is like the third rail of Christian doctrine.Hath not the potter power over the clay?? According to Eric Anderson, I guess not.These perverse little leaven filled cakes are constructed specifically to convince the weak-minded and ill-informed. Simplistic in construction, insidious in their deceit.Why were these saints chosen? Here is the primary reason: “That we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption [sonship] of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will” (verses 4-5). Clearly, the “saints” were selected to become actual sons of the Most High!The guy does not answer his own question, at least not clearly, but deceitfully, I think he has this in mind, “That we should be holy and without blame before him in love" which does not make sense, the reason, of course, is, "according to the good pleasure of his will" The "why" of why we were chosen boils down to, "because of the will of God," nothing else.It was predestined that those who “first trusted in Christ” would receive an inheritance.He misses the forest for the trees. As if predestination just boiled down to something so trite.ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Emailer's First Reply:
----- Original Message -----From:Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 2:15 AMSubject: Re:
Paul I don't care if you post or not ,do it,it is obvious that you think he has an agenda,so ok. The guy agress with you on predestination ,he quotes the whole verse ,you just can't help to make it complicated,saying that he made it too simple.He brings forth a simple truth,yet you want to bring in the forest.Go figure.Is he saying that the potter has no power over the clay????? Is it not the elect who will teach and govern in the ways of God during the millenium to the rest.? Is that not also the will of God? Why teach them if they are predestinated? Paul,if you have it your way ,no one will understand the scripture,only you.the rest are stupid.God does have the power over the clay and he can predestinate his elect without freewill and he can predestinate the rest to have free will,get off your high horse.XXXXSleep some more.
My Second Response: edits in maroon and in ( ), as in: (this is an example of an edit)
----- Original Message -----To:Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 1:13 PMSubject: Re:
Hi XXX,The guy agress with you on predestination ,he quotes the whole verse ,you just can't help to make it complicated,saying that he made it too simple.He does not agree with me, I can't figure out why you would say that...! Man does not have a free will.XXX, when you listed those sins from 2Timothy, would you say that it was your will to do those things? If it is your will to do those things then you are sinning willfully. But if your will is to do right, but you just find yourself doing wrong, then you must admit that your will is not free.If man's will was free then we would not need Jesus, "Whosoever commiteth sin is the servant of sin...if the son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." If man's will was free then Romans 7 would not be true. If man had free will you would never say that no one can live without sin.We have to be made free to do the will of God. Our will may be to do the will of God, but if we are not made free then we will not do according to that will but rather according to bondage.you just can't help to make it complicated,saying that he made it too simpleI did keep it simple, I gave you my opinion is a few short sentences, the idea that I might agree with that guy, I can't imagine what gave you that impression, I thought we talked about this.saying that he made it too simpleWell, I mean that he used a simplification to pervert the truth, I didn't mean that it just had to be made more complicated for the sake of complication.He brings forth a simple truth,yet you want to bring in the forest.No, he uses a little truth to try to make a big truth into a lie. I hate that.Go figure.Is he saying that the potter has no power over the clay?????Yes, he denies that God has the power to determine people's fatesThose who are predestined are pre-called—not prejudged or pre-condemned. Some erroneously assume God has decided our fate already. They do not understand that man is created with free willIs it not the elect who will teach and govern in the ways of God during the millenium to the rest.? Is that not also the will of God? Why teach them if they are predestinated?Because being taught is their destiny. (So simple) This is still bugging you, eh?Paul, if you have it your way ,no one will understand the scripture,only you.the rest are stupid.That is for you to decide, I know that I know the scriptures and understand them, I have not met anyone who understands them better, there are men that know them better, that is true, indeed, I'm only 34. I have met men who understand them as I do, but none that understands them better. I'm not boasting, that is just my experience, it has not been fun either, think of every movie you have ever seen where one person sees something that no one else can see, what do they think of that person, how does he feel? That was my life until 2005 when I found a church full of people like me. I could have just kept my mouth shut and gone with the flow, but that is not the way I was made.It is not because people are stupid, but because they are blind.When I look at works like these I am disgusted, when I wrote my work on Hell I looked at all the scriptures (or tried to) This guy is writing propaganda (propaganda he believes in but it is still propaganda) I do it sometimes too, for spiritoftruthchurch.org, I'm sure I inspire similar contempt from those who disagree with me. Even so, there is nothing wrong with propaganda when it is really the truth, there is nothing wrong with having an agenda if it is God's righteous cause.God does have the power over the clay and he can predestinate his elect without freewill and he can predestinate the rest to have free willI suppose he could do that, but the question is, "Do the scriptures say he does that?" No, they don't. If people had a free will then they would not need Jesus to make them free. People are under bondage to sin. They do not have freedom.Gal 3:21 if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,
All are concluded under sin, no one (by nature) has a will that is free to obey God's law and live. Do you believe that man has a "sin nature?" If man has a nature to sin, the how can it be said that man is free?get off your high horse.I refuse. (Who is ramming what down whose throat?? Look at yourself.)
Emailer's Second Reply:
----- Original Message -----From:Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:25 PMSubject: Re:
Ok Paul I think I understand where you stand,but does that mean that man cannot decern between good and evil and choose ,that his choice is already made for him through destination.
My Third Response: edits in maroon and in ( ), as in: (this is an example of an edit)
----- Original Message -----To:Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 9:22 PMSubject: Re:
Both are true, it is not an "either-or" question, Man does discern good and evil, but even if he wants to do good, he cannot, because he does not have a free will, he is in bondage to sin. That is just "basics." Usually people get pissed at that saying and try to mock the truth with an over simplified straw-man argument.Whatever one wishes to say about how predestination goes, or how far it plays out, the following should be self-evident and self-explanatory for all mankind,18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.The will is clearly not free.(And even when it is made free, it comes under another type of bondage, the chain of Christ)Freewill really is somewhat independent of the doctrine of predestination, people just use the idea of a "free-will" to knock down predestination. Free will is also an important part of the philosophy held dear by many false teachers, the philosophy they use to explain the "problem of evil" uses the freewill of man as the primary explanation for evil (I think that philosophy is itself evil, you might have guessed.) So they pervert the clear word of God on this subject.SincerelyPaul
Emailer's Third Reply:
----- Original Message -----From:Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 4:10 AMSubject: Re:Paul..... Those verses I have read them a number of times ,but for some reason now I understand what Paul is saying or rather more the importance to me at this moment about what he is saying. Those verses have convinced me of what you have been trying to tell me about predestination, but then I have always believed it for the election. More important though is that to be free of sin is to be in bondage to Christ.It is true that man is in bondage to sin for the nature of the flesh brings man into captivity to sin.Now that being true ,for it is written in Gods word,proves that man has no free willIt does not tick me off though,I understand that we are totally dependent on God,even for every breath we take and so it is with redemption,there is non without Christ.Having said that ,I have still some more questions and doubts to clear up. I need proof ,for it is not simple.Is it true those living under mainstream religion are then living under false hope,for there is no hope for them unless they are called out of it.?for predestination without freewill is not a teaching of mainstream religion.Is it true that salvation is only of the election,in other words when a person has been saved by Christ then that person is of the election.?And being of the election it has been predestinated from before the foundations of the earth?Is it true that those who have not recieved salvation where choosen for destruction before the foundation of the world?Is it true that all those who are blinded to the word have been choosen for destruction from before the foundation of the world.?Is it true that there are only two types of election,the heirs and the joint heirs? or is there only one as all Israel shall be savedThats all for now Paul but I am enjoying this for you have really made an effort to project yourself properly , it allows me to hear you more clearly.XXXXX
My Fourth Response: edits in maroon and in ( ), as in: (this is an example of an edit)
----- Original Message -----To: BobSent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 2:12 AMSubject: Re: predestination
Hi XXXXX,The next thought I would give you to consider is the idea of the self-will of man.2Pe2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.Self-willed is a quality which characterizes at least some people.I need to do a minor digression here: When the Bible says God is patient, it means that he is characterized by that quality, it does not mean that he is eternally patient, (as in the Apocalypse) Patience waits for an end patiently, but the end is expected. Even impatient people may display moments of patience. Just like an uncontentious person may display occasional contentiousness, (such as Steven, Paul, or Jesus) It is what characterizes people overall and when and how they display the "constructive" or "destructive" qualities and how God judges those uses that tells the full story about someone. I'm making this point because we all have self-will, it determines so much of who we are, the things we prefer, our tastes, our decision making but we must not be characterized by it in things that pertain to God and to goodness and to Righteousness. We submit ourselves to the will of God subjecting our own will to his.Self-willed people are people who are characterized by having their will dominate most, or all, of their decisions, or at least the very critical ones, it all depends on how God judges it. "Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me" and all such statements speak to the denial of ones own self will and a subjection to God's will, of course, none of that is possible without His interference, because no matter how much we may will to deny ourselves, we will still find ourselves in the Romans 7 trap, Romans seven is the portrait of man seeking to obey God by his own devices, and always ending in failure.It does not tick me off thoughYou have a better grasp on the fact that God is your Lord and man is just a puny speck, than many others. It seem like people these days have a problem with authority and the idea of an extremely powerful lord over them unsettles them, I suppose it is a side effect of western democracy, every man thinks he is a king.. Jesus is just a buddy, not a master, not in any true sense of the word. Freewill makes man more significant, we do not like to thing of ourselves as creatures that are not even worthy to live.Is it true those living under mainstream religion are then living under false hope,for there is no hope for them unless they are called out of it.?for predestination without freewill is not a teaching of mainstream religion.I would not say they are "without hope," anyone that names the name of Jesus has hope. Of course you know that. God may call them out of their false doctrines, of course, with the living there is always hope of deliverance... but looking at the issue that if someone who does not understand this particular point of doctrine, and remains in such a state, whether I should expect that God will lay it to their charge or not... There is a certain degree to which knowledge is necessary...Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and (the unity) of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:There is a unity of the knowledge of him, I really think that when Jesus returns that the only churches which he will receive will be in unity of faith and of knowledge, they will also be perfected to the stated degree (as a body, that is the subject in this scripture) Not everyone can attain heights of "knowledge" and the knowledge of Jesus Christ, while being more than just, "believe in Jesus," should not be cluttered with unnecessary burdens of doctrines which do not profit. (Much less with false doctrines, great and small)Knowledge is important, and doctrine actually saves us...1Cor 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.1Tim4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.Most people do not like to say that doctrine saves us, doctrine is almost as bad a word as "agenda," They say, "nevermind doctrine, Just believe in Jesus." And, of course, that is also a doctrine, a doctrine that is supposed to save people. Doctrine saves us because the teachings which we receive tell us what we must do to inherit eternal life. There are things that must be done to live forever; if it is, "nevermind doctrine, Just believe in Jesus," then that is what we have to do and it is a doctrine. We have to "nevermind doctrine," and, "Just believe in Jesus" and we, and those that hear us will be saved.Without doctrine, salvation is not possible, for everyone who inherits eternal life hears or receives some doctrine which they believe in to the benefit of their soul. Even the penitent thief on the cross was believing a doctrine. That doctrine was, "I am a sinner worthy of death," and "You are the King who may remember me in your kingdom and improve my situation." I don't know all that that man believed, but those were the things he confessed, and, by the grace of God, his doctrine saved him.So the question becomes: "Is knowledge of predestination a requirement of salvation." I would have to say "no," (with a big but, in a moment) Predestination is not listed in Heb 6 as foundational to Christianity, though it is certainly necessary for understanding who God is, why evil exists and for answering many deep questions. I see predestination throughout the Bible (Gen 1:1 In the Beginning God...), but if someone does not understand this, I do not think that it means that they are lost (assuming that all the other things pertaining to that man are acceptable before God)Here is the big but. But if someone does understand this doctrine and rejects it, or actively opposes it [perhaps not fully understanding it or properly understanding it (they may not be able to understand it)] and accepts a false doctrine in opposition to the truth, then they are in sin. And sin means death. God is judge and he certainly can send someone to hell for misbelief. But I do not believe that anyone will burn in hell because the only lacked belief in predestination. When God condemns the unrighteous they themselves will be convinced of all their ungodly ways.If someone is ignorant of the truth, God may wink at it (for a time), but if they know the truth, but do not receive the love of the truth...we have scriptures for that.2Th2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.Is it true that salvation is only of the election,in other words when a person has been saved by Christ then that person is of the election.?I think so, but the "when" and the "then" are very important, there are plenty of people who claim to have obtained salvation but have obtained nothing. I believe I have salvation, but only because it was promised, and the only way I can really receive that promise is if it was really made to me.The very nature of the idea "election" really defines itself.If I have a group of 30 guys trying out for a team and I say, "I have selected these ten." There is no need to wonder whether the other 20 can be on the team or not. (Unless, I say, we are opening 10 more slots for a "B-team" I really don't see such a "B-team" in scripture, but even then, players for those slots would have to be selected too,)The big idea is: Selection implies Rejection, if you are not selected, you are rejected. This is an all-knowing God, not a human coach, he knows who he is picking, it has nothing to do with their deeds, but the counsel of his own will. The very idea that one is "selected" or "not selected" provokes a question...What are the elect chosen/selected for/to?1Pe1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.These are the things that we are selected to. Without these things, can anyone be saved?If one is chosen unto the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus, it is reasonable to think that others who are not chosen to the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus are going to get the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus? I don't think so. I don't think you can just be a "walk-on" free-agent player on this team. As if God is going to look at some free-willed (self-willed) guy, doing his darnedest best and say, "Hey, How did I miss that guy! Get him on my team!" That would not be grace. We are saved by grace unto good works, we are not saved by good works unto grace, that is where every freewill scenario ends up taking us, to salvation by our works. They don't like to say you have to do any works to earn God's favor but you have to do at least one really big work, you must accept him. That is a very significant work in that man is said to have no power to do good or to seek after God, at least not by his own devices...(Rom3)Eph:1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.Mankind, in our current state is unacceptable to God, we have to be made acceptable, in order to become acceptable we have to be chosen and sanctified, adopted, predestinated, That word "predestinated" means foreordained, but do not let the word "destiny" escape us, it is our end that has been predetermined for us, not the idea that if we make the right choices we can get on a train that is destined to go on to eternity (that is the way that other guy was saying it, in that perversion, the team is predestinated, but God is having try-outs for the team, that is not grace).And being of the election it has been predestinated from before the foundations of the earth?Eph 1:4,5 makes that statement.Is it true that those who have not received salvation were chosen for destruction before the foundation of the world?You make that a complicated question for me, because I don't like to use that kind of a statement "those who have not received salvation" Because as far as I can tell no one has received actual eternal salvation.Ro8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.Paul calls the Spirit of God the (firstfruits) he also calls it the "earnest of our inheritance," Though I believe that God has chosen me for salvation from before the world began, and though I believe that by His death on the cross, Jesus saved me, I still have not been saved (in History, though I was saved berfore the foundations of the world...funny), I have not even died yet, and the dead still sleep, until the resurrection all I have is a promise and some earnest. Now the one who has promised, he cannot lie, but whether I have really "received" salvation from God is all dependant on whether that promise was for me. And even though I believe it, I haven't really received it yet.When people say they have "received salvation," they usually mean that they have personally accepted a promise of salvation from God. They do not usually mean that they actually obtained anything tangible from God. Sometimes people say, "God saved me from Alcohol, Drugs, etc." and that has some merit, because sin is what will destroy us and in eliminating these things from our lives we see the work of salvation in our lives. But I'm really not actually saved until the work of salvation is totally finished and I'm raised from the dead, not that I'm at risk, nor that God's love can fail. We (and the Apostles) use the language "saved" because a promise from God is better than gold, and his ordination is without repentance or error, plus he determined these things before the foundation of the world, but they do not yet appear (1John 3). We are supposed to believe in his salvation, without doubt.The reason the apostles say things like the following is because we need convincing, not God.2Pet1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:(giving all diligence, add to your faith, virtue; knowledge; temperance; patience; godliness; brotherly kindness; charity)When we see those works happening, we should feel more sure of our election, because these are the kinds of things which accompany salvation. But if we see the opposite things..well we may not admit it, but those are tokens of perdition. Speaking of which let me rephrase your question:RESTATED: Is it true that those who do not obtain salvation were chosen for destruction before the foundation of the world?If God is choosing certain people for his "team," and all the players that will ever live are known to him, and he is not just randomly throwing the rest into the world, not knowing what will become of them, then the fates of those not chosen to be ON the team are also predetermined, because they were known to him, yet he did not ordain them to eternal life.Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.Eph2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.Faith does not originate within me, it is a gift from God to even be able to believe in Jesus, just think of all the intelligent people who do not believe, who really CAN'T believe. Because God has not given it to them to believe. When I was talking about the works originating with God, this is the kind of thing I had in mind.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.Christians are created, not willed of man.If God made no such provision for the rest of humanity, even assuming they were "free" to do as they please, they would still run up against Romans 7 and also, if they were NOT chosen by God, yet obtained salvation by means of their own decision making process, that would turn the grace of God (at least the grace of God as taught in scripture ) on its head, because the grace of God is supposed to operate independent of mans works and a decision making process made independently of God's direction or ordination would be the work of the decider, not of Him.I will mention Romans 9 in passing, I remember you accepted the idea of a "positive and negative" selection, but had reserved a middle ground, I believe that is what you are asking about, but I only mention it in passing because I obviously believe that ultimately everyone falls in to one or the other camp.Is it true that all those who are blinded to the word have been chosen for destruction from before the foundation of the world.?Absolutely NOT, when Jesus came, the report delivered to John the Baptist was that "the blind receive their sight." Jesus came to "give sight to the blind," not just literally but spiritually, we were all once blind, and we nearly all must still be at least partially blind, If I wasn't partly blind then I'd know everything. Current blindness is no indicator of election.What if someone is blind? You didn't ask it but I will. I do not give assurances to the dead or for the dead, the dead will go to the judgment and receive their just recompense for the deeds done in their body. I wonder if anyone can bee said to be totally blind. They would have to be a vegetable, and they probably would not have any works of salvation or doctrine either, God may be just letting them die, or he may choose to save such, as in all cases, salvation is the work of God.If someone is not foreordained to salvation then we have to ask ourselves: By what means may someone obtain salvation if not by election? Because if it is not by election, then it is not of grace, and if it is not of grace, then it is of works. If the primary reason I am saved is a decision I have made with faith that I have created within myself, rather than a decision God has made then I am the initiator of salvation. But if the faith is created within me by God, then I am his chosen.If one was to say, in such a case, that God acted first in offering his son, then I would ask, "what is the difference between this unelected person who gets saved compared to another unelected person who does not get saved?" What would the difference between them be? What made one get saved and the other not? It could be nothing less than the action taken on their part, because if these people are not elected, neither to life, nor destruction, and these are operating according to their own will to choose or not to choose God, then their salvation depends more on their own actions than on any other factor. (Remember the parable of the wedding feast, he had to compell people to come in (if you want to talk about the scoundrel, I'd be glad)In such a case (freewill), their own actions are the truly decisive factor, God may have offered his own son first, but that offering did not profit them until they made the decision to accept God, so man is in really in control and God's hands are tied after the cross. I find that sort of theology to be repulsive (for lack of a better word) because it really takes the reins out of God's hands and makes him subject to the will of man. I believe that I have to be made acceptable to God, I can't do that of myself, the decisive factor Is the decision that God makes about me5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:Everything pertaining to salvation comes down to man from God, salvation is the work of God, redeeming man. Man does not seek after God, (Ro3:11) God seeks after man. The only reason we seek him is because he was seeking us first.To those who would say he is seeking everyone, then again I say, what distinguishes someone who obtains from someone who does not obtain, and it can be nothing other than their deeds. And if God is seeking all, then he is going to colossally fail. True love never fails, if God truly loves someone, there is no way he would let them go into the lake of fire, because he has all the power in the world to stop it.Is it true that there are only two types of election, the heirs and the joint heirs? or is there only one as all Israel shall be savedI never realized that people made a group distinction between "heirs" and "Joint heirs" I suppose it is alot like the whole "elect" and "very elect" debacle. (Which is like saying the Christ and the very Christ. Jesus is the very Christ. The word "very" when used like that is not indicating "more" as in "very tasty" is is a figure of speech essentially emphasizing the noun it is attached to, I'm having trouble verbalizing it... Consider also: "then believe me, for the very works sake." That is they way very is being used with that.)Ro 8;17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.I am an heir and a joint-heir, the two terms do not refer to two different groups of people, but rather two different aspects of inheritance. I have an inheritance which is my own, and I have an inheritance which I share with Christ. Hope that helps.I do not think I understand how it all works; though the more I consider it the more insight I seem to get, especially when I consider the scriptures. Predestination is invisible to man, only God can really truly see it and know then end of things. It must be incredibly complex (not the doctrine, but the execution and governance of such a world, the doctrine simplifies things).Sincerely,Paul
Emailer's Fourth Reply:
----- Original Message -----From:Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 3:50 PMSubject: Re: predestinationHi PaulWe are here engaging in a philosophical debate ,which I don't know whether or not I am equipped to engage in,yet it is a very amicable debate that I am enjoying. Regardless it is still philosophical in nature and as such it is the result of personal analytical interpretation.What I am saying is that the word as it is written explains itself,but man has to write other books to put his interpretation to it,in an attempt to make people understand what it all means. A futile attempt ,for it is given that some see and others don't.In that sense you could say that predestination is at work and we can see that it has a purpose.The purpose is to bring forth the first fruits in this age of Grace.This elect of the first fruits, in its nature, is a select group and very limited for they are destined to rule as Kings and Priests with Christ when he sets up his millennial kingdom. Not all can be rulers,for it does not make any sense ,but these are literally being culled out of the nations for a single purpose.Having said that, I believe that God has a plan for all those who have been blinded This does not include the elect who have been predestined to eternal damnation ,for as the word says they are presumptuous and self willed( not afraid to speak evil of dignities )and predestined to be so for the purposes of Gods plan.Regardless they are given predestinated self-will to bring about the purposes of God .Now it only makes sense that the elect of the first fruits(kings and priests)and the tares(ungodly)are given predestinated self - will,one to do good and the other to do evil according to the will of GodWhat it boils down to is conscience..Both these elect have an inner strength or self will to pay heed to or ignore that conscience.For all in the flesh shall sin for the flesh is sin,but a person who pays heed to his conscience will seek forgiveness in Christ Jesus for sins committed and the strength to continue in his grace.Now can we say that election pertains to predestination,in that each of the good and evil election are either predestined to salvation or destruction. One group elected for salvation and the other elected for destruction,already sanctified and judged.Now we have those who are blinded, they have no inner strength ,rather they seek strength through their own, others and worldly philosophies,which can change with the wind. This group or election would have to be predestinated to blindness (if we continue in this same course) and not subject to either salvation or damnation yet that we know of. We know what the outcome is for the good and evil elect ,but not for the blinded elect. I am not saying that they are not predestinated for good or evil ,but that it has not been revealed to us yet,that determined in writing as we understand about the first fruits (the kings and priests) and the tares(ungodly).He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.We know that the Good seed and the tares both land on fertile soil and bring forth fruit to perfection in the sense of both good and evil for they are both harvested.Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Luke 8:16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
Luke 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.We also know that the rest do not fall on fertile soil or are choked out and produce no fruit to perfection and cannot be harvested for there is nothing to harvest.Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.I suppose that the yields depend on how much fertile soil and rock you have in your field. I think there is more yet to come that we do not understand,not given to understand ,or refuse to understand,and this statement is not a cop-out ,for perfection is a work in progress.XXXXX
My Fifth Response: edits in maroon and in ( ), as in: (this is an example of an edit)
At this Point in the conversation before I could reply, the emailer asked me if I had heard of "Lance Knight." You can read that short exchange in #40f.
I was tied up answering other peoples questions and I did not get a chance to respond to the Emailer's 4th reply, a month later he sent me this.
Emailer's Fifth Reply:
----- Original Message -----From:Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:04 AMSubject: Fw: predestination
hello PaulIn our many exchanges It has become very plain and obvious what you think about me. It seems to me that according to you I have all the marks of a Tare. Now if God made me this way then why do you insist on convincing me otherwise. God created me as I am and you as you are,niether of us can change, for God ordained it so,from the foundation ,its a done deal right? If I have self will then first off, it has to be Gods will .So no matter what you say ,I cannot go against Gods will,and niether can you. Is it my self will to spread this doctrine of the Kenites.and your self will to refute it. How can this be when everything is Gods will from the foundations? How can anyone have self will, when everything is Gods will. No man can stop from sinning unless it is Gods will,right?. In the same sense if God wants a man to continue sinning,it is his will,so what Is it my self will or Gods will that I am contending with you,and whos will is it that you are here contending with me. What a logic defiying mess.The following statement sure sounds like free will to me .We submit ourselves to the will of God subjecting our own will to hisA descision making process is required,to submit. A willful action on the individual to reject their own will and subject their will to Gods will. I still believe that all men are given free will in that sense,excluding the elect,both negative and positive. When a freewill elect as ordained is called ,God places a choice before them,to continue in thier free will or to discard it and subject themselves to the will of God . The consequence for rejecting God and the love of the truth is death and rejecting our free will and submitting ourselves to Christ is life.If things are as you believe them to be that the outcome for all has been ordained from the foundation then there is niether submitting nor rejection only a forced prearrangment which does apply to the elect.You say that God does not have to be kind,fair,justifiable,merciful,loving, because God is all powerful and has ordained and predestinated all things,yet he magnanomously exibits all these qualities from his word,and requires it from his sons . These qualities in man come from God but man is given a choice in the flesh to recieve or reject them. Now recieving (obtaining as you put it) or rejecting salvation has nothing to do with providing or giving salvationAgain in the following statement (DENIAL) requires a willful action on the individuals part. Of course if a man tries to live according to the law he will fail,that is a fundamental of Christianity.We as Christians all should know that there is no salvation in the law but only in Christ. All men sin and would have no salvation without repentance and forgiveness in Christ. We have had the argument about sin before,and I say all men sin ,and you say well all men don,t have to sin, but I say they don,t have to but they all do sin anyway ,as even men of God did as is written in the scriptures. I know how you turn things around . You deny that repentence and forgiveness are an ongoing process for the individual. I guess seven times seventy has no significanceSelf-willed people are people who are characterized by having their will dominate most, or all, of their decisions, or at least the very critical ones, it all depends on how God judges it. "Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me" and all such statements speak to the denial of ones own self will and a subjection to God's will, of course, none of that is possible without His interference, because no matter how much we may will to deny ourselves, we will still find ourselves in the Romans 7 trap, Romans seven is the portrait of man seeking to obey God by his own devices, and always endingThe following statements does not make sense,for if your doctrine of predestination as you teach it is not necessary for salvation then it is useless . For you teach it as it is the be all and end all.It has been the main theme of all your discussions with me.I would not say they are "without hope," anyone that names the name of Jesus has hope. Of course you know that. God may call them out of their false doctrines, of course, with the living there is always hope of deliverance... but looking at the issue that if someone who does not understand this particular point of doctrine, and remains in such a state, whether I should expect that God will lay it to their charge or not... There is a certain degree to which knowledge is necessarySo the question becomes: "Is knowledge of predestination a requirement of salvation." I would have to say "no," (with a big but, in a moment) Predestination is not listed in Heb 6 as foundational to Christianity, though it is certainly necessary for understanding who God is, why evil exists and for answering many deep questions. I see predestination throughout the Bible (Gen 1:1 In the Beginning God...), but if someone does not understand this, I do not think that it means that they are lost (assuming that all the other things pertaining to that man are acceptable before God)Again in the following statements you claim that the knowledge of predestination is not necessary for salvation,therefore the teaching of its doctrine is in vain and useless.. But I do not believe that anyone will burn in hell because the only lacked belief in predestination. When God condemns the unrighteous they themselves will be convinced of all their ungodly ways.If someone knows the truth and does not receive the love of the truth and rejects it ,that person takes that action and does so of their own free and self will.You cannot apply this to the elect for the positive elect do know and the negative elect will always be ignorant of it.If someone is ignorant of the truth, God may wink at it (for a time), but if they know the truth, but do not receive the love of the truth...we have scriptures for that.2Th2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.You claim man has no free will yet you make the following statements and you say my logic is faulty? To actively oppose or reject something you understand requires free will,and self will .Where is your logic,first you say the person DOES understand it then you say ,perhaps not fully,or properly ,or may not be able to. What kind of rambling is that?There is a flaw in your thinking Paul,you know that the positive elect are chosen for a purpose ,which is for the purpose of administrative positions in Gods government. You have left out salvation for the rest of mankind,I have said this before that not all can be kings and priests.You see Paul,you do that which you say you hate,you give yourself special status , salvation by ordination,through predestination,rather than in and through Christ. You do spin a tangled webHere is the big but. But if someone does understand this doctrine and rejects it, or actively opposes it [perhaps not fully understanding it or properly understanding it (they may not be able to understand it)] and accepts a false doctrine in opposition to the truth, then they are in sin.Yes the first fruits,you seem to forget that statement,for Paul knew he was saved ,and a first fruit. You on the other hand are sure that you were saved from the foundations of this earth,but claim to only have a promise and some earnest till the resurrection. lets apply some logic here Paul,either your saved or not,if from the foundation then it is a sure thing and the resurrection is the manifestation of that salvation. You can't have it both ways ,its a done deal or not according to predestination.Paul calls the Spirit of God the (firstfruits) he also calls it the "earnest of our inheritance," Though I believe that God has chosen me for salvation from before the world began, and though I believe that by His death on the cross, Jesus saved me, I still have not been saved (in History, though I was saved berfore the foundations of the world...funny), I have not even died yet, and the dead still sleep, until the resurrection all I have is a promise and some earnest. Now the one who has promised, he cannot lie, but whether I have really "received" salvation from God is all dependant on whether that promise was for me. And even though I believe it, I haven't really received it yetIs your rendition of predestination the love of the truth? Apparently not for in your own words, it is not necessary for salvation.2Th2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be savedPaul, I believe in Jesus Christ, rest assured that I am well aware that I am not worthy to live and that there is only one hope for me, but don't think that man is insignificant in Gods eyes. Yes ,man is insignificant in comparison to God,but he made the universe for his children and in that fact Gods thoughts towards man was by no means insignificant. We do not believe the same,you and I and I don't really want to continue with this at the present time as I am very busy,and I tire of continuing to refute the rest of your last response,and as you say this hashing back and forth really has become boring, please post
My Sixth Response: edits in maroon and in ( ), as in: (this is an example of an edit)
----- Original Message -----From: Paul StringiniTo:Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 2:38 PMSubject: Re: predestinationI got busy with someone else, I'm about to update my site so I wanted to finish this reply and I have. I considered just putting it on my site, if you can resist replying that would be fine by me, but if you do reply my final reply will appear only on the website.Bob,It is not logic-defying, you just don't think about these things properly. You don't take the time to try. You don't get it because you are hostile, and I don't think you want to get it, not that one has to "want to get it," but you have made it pretty clear that you find the very idea of biblical predestination to be morally reprehensible, that is a barrier to understanding. If one doesn't surrender his own ideas and seek God's instruction, he will never obtain anything from God.When I talk to students of the Chapel, many of them give me this "common sense" shtick. Like this: If the bible seems to say that Adam and Eve were the first and only people God created, and my common sense tells me that black and white people could not have common ancestors, then I must follow my common sense and find a way in which I can make the bible fit in with my common sense: i.e. sixth, and eighth day creations. Common sense is the uninformed wisdom of man. That is what you are using as you go about trying to learn about predestination, one cannot apply common sense to this subject and try to make the scriptures fit into what seems right to him. One has to take the scriptures for what they are and seek wisdom in what they teach."In our many exchanges It has become very plain and obvious what you think about me. It seems to me that according to you I have all the marks of a Tare.I don't say that, and I don't think that. The tares and the wheat grow together until the harvest, until that time it is possible for someone to mistake wheat for tare and tare for wheat, that is my understanding from the parable, things happen to people, people change.Is there really any point in putting words in my mouth in a vain attempt to paint me as a "bad guy"? Everything is just so personal with you. Do people ever tell you to lighten up? We all need to take our faith seriously but you seem to take yourself way too seriously.People write me and tell me that I'm all kinds of bad things, but I know the things that are really true about me, the bad but true things, I know all too well. So, I don't take their false criticism seriously, or personally, because I've already been mercilessly self-critical, I spent a long period of my life feeling suicidal and/or depressed, basically, my entire youth. I had a very low self esteem, I've been to the bottom and because of that, a bunch of name-calling know-nothings are just an amusement. Notice how I deflect all those critical remarks or turn them around? It's fun and easy. There was a point in my life where criticism would crush me. I'm through with unreasonable and cruel examinations, they don't work on me, I already put myself through all that and they just can't touch me. The whole world can read all about my sins, the nonsense charges brought against me, they are mostly just funny.Now if God made me this way then why do you insist on convincing me otherwise.I don't insist on convincing you, I've told you before, I do it for the people who will read our discussions, I have a duty to be sure that the truth prevails. I only insist on finishing the message (And a further insight on this is coming up).God created me as I am and you as you are,niether of us can change, for God ordained it so,from the foundation ,its a done deal right?Wrong. Is the caterpilar destined to crawl on his belly all the days of his life? Or will he sprout wings and fly some day? Destiny does not change, but destiny changes things from what they seem to be into what they were destined to be.At one point in my life I seemed like I going to be a drug addicted loser all my life, God changed me. And even if he had not had a supernatural hand in it, it is in the nature of some things to change. The caterpilar becomes a butterfly. The drunk goes dry. Sometimes it is just part of our nature.What if the caterpilar said, "God created me as I am, a caterpilar, and that is all I will be for the rest of my life." He might be right, he might be birdfood. But maybe God did not create him to be a mere caterpilar, maybe he was created to become a butterfly, it is in his nature, all he needs are the right circumstances (ie available foodsources and to survive long enough).So once again, your lack of perception and hostility is blinding you. God creates some things to change over time, they go through life stages, this also is His doing.Maybe it is a little beyond rocket science, but then again, that is not very hard to understand either.If I have self will then first off, it has to be Gods will .So no matter what you say ,I cannot go against Gods will,and niether can you.Right, whatever has been put in us to do, we will do, and we will want to do it.Is it my self will to spread this doctrine of the Kenites.and your self will to refute it. How can this be when everything is Gods will from the foundations?There are people in this world who only know me as the kid who taught that Eve had sex with Satan. When I believed in Dr. Murray's teachings I was as zealous for them then, as I am zealous against them today. Did I go against God's will by being persuaded that everything I was teaching was wrong?God's will is not like some stupid brick stuck in cement. God never changes but his will causes things to change. I already gave you this, but I guess it had to be said again.Your biggest problem is that you cannot condense the way in which God runs the universe into your puny "common sense" thinking. Humility is the first step to understanding, a willingness to believe that one is ignorant and incapable of understanding. You may think I come off as a know-it-all, but you have no idea how I got here, you are the one who "knows" too much.How can anyone have self will, when everything is Gods will.Because God gives it to them, it becomes part of their nature. This does not seem to me to be some major hurdle.No man can stop from sinning unless it is Gods will,right?.No man can take a piss unless it is God's will. But it does not just end there.In the same sense if God wants a man to continue sinning,it is his will,so whatWhat about this, when God gives someone a will that is contrary to his stated will? Like sin, and this:Take Pharaoh, God said, "Let my people go." He wanted them to worship Him in the wilderness. But right up front he told Moses that He would harden Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't let them go.Bob, If you were Moses you might say, (and don't take this too personally) "What a logic defying mess, God, I mean, do you want Pharaoh to let the people go or not? And why make it so rough on Pharaoh? Give the guy a chance, I mean, If you would just leave his heart alone, and not harden it, he would let us go after three or four miracles for sure, why do you have to be so tyrannical? Why do you have to kill a bunch of firstborn including babies that have never done anything more than suck their mothers' breasts? You have to give Pharaoh the chance to decide for himself if he would rather let the people go or live with these awful consequences without interfering with his heart that's just not fair...Ok let's forget about my "tyrannical" remarks, If you are going to harden Pharaoh's heart, why bother sending me? Why not just hit him with the ten plagues and then make him let us go? Why waste my time? Maybe I could just Go in after plague 9?"Is it my self will or Gods will that I am contending with you,and whos will is it that you are here contending with me.It never mattered to me, but it is probably a blend of wills. I don't know everything, I just accept what God has said, and the implications, I'm not going to pervert the word of God by means of rose-colored glasses or so-called "common sense."When Moses and Aaron went before Pharaoh were they wasting their time? Have you considered the possibility that if God is hardening your heart that he might have me keep debating you anyway, for his own purposes? Maybe he doesn't want you to hearken to me, maybe he wants you to keep questioning and keep questioning so that he can make an example out of you? I have no idea.But I do consider those kinds of things for myself. It is a healthy practice.Ex7:13And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.ex9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.Ex10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might show these my signs before him:
What a logic defiying mess.Suit yourself. But I'm not very confident that you understand logic. And I'm not always confident in logic either.Sincerely,Paul
Emailer's Sixth Reply: This Reply is cut in two because the emailer changes the subject
----- Original Message -----From:xxxxxxxxxxTo: Paul StringiniSent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 5:32 AMSubject: Re: predestination
Hi PaulIt has been a while and I was not sure that I would correspond further with you,but being the fool that I am ,here we are again.I got busy with someone else, I'm about to update my site so I wanted to finish this reply and I have. I considered just putting it on my site, if you can resist replying that would be fine by me, but if you do reply my final reply will appear only on the websiteI do not want or wish to go into a preamble,but what does the previous statement mean,is it a rouse,a taunt,a hidden threat ? Do I really care,whether you post this or not,have I in the past? Why are you trying to appeal to my pride to goad me in to doing what? It is wasted on me,I answer because I wish to or I can leave it if I tire of it.You just gave me a philosophical lesson in life and why I failed. Yet you claim not to be an expert,and you no longer do self examinations.Why is that?are you afraid of the pain?Sounds to me that you have decided that you no longer sin so that you no longer need that self examination,(the beautiful butterfly.)Do you think that all the people that read what is posted on your site agree with you. You continue to tell me that I don't know what your doctrine is ,then if that is the case then post something and teach. I do know that it is your personal agenda to refute the doctrines of AM ,has God chosen you to do that?The only doctrine you seem to have is predestination.There are things that AM teaches that I do not agree with and probably I will find others . You play your cards pretty close to the chest on some issues,by not really making yourself clear on how you stand,at least AM is clear on how he stands.He even teaches predestination albeit not quite like you do,you teach it with ambiguity.And another thing I did not say that Gods word was a logic defying mess ,you did. Its your rendition of some of it that I consider logic defying,there is a world of difference ,but that is how you have learned to twist the truth. But then you consider your rendition as Gods word,so I can see where you may not make the distinction.For instance the doctrine of the trinity. I have read your criticisms on the different teachings,and I must agree non of them make any sense ,but your lack of insight and lack of the attempt to,in how to explain it leaves much to be desired. You made the following statement in your posting on (The Shepherd's Chapel and Dr. Arnold Murray)Anyway, there are lots of good reasons to reject the Trinity. I'll just say that I like to describe God and the Son of God using only the scriptures. That is good enough for me and for anyoneIf you believe that then why did you not use Gods word to describe that relationship,but that leaves you open to scrutiny on a subject that is and has been discussed in depth for ages.I have my own thoughts into the subject as follows and am not afraid of sharing them.Though you may not think so I believe that God has shared this insight with me and it started with PMs thoughts on the 3 officesI have read so many explanations about what is called the trinity and have not been able to make head nor tail of the accepted,traditional explanation of it,which is that the essence of God is a single triune head composed of 3 distinct persons.???????? What a bunch of illogical mumbo-jumbo to confuse people with. This explanation says that God is not a single real person ,rather it says that God is an idea or rulership with 3 separate persons ruling under an umbrella called "The God Head" three persons yet one. How can anyone reconcile this as reasonable. This is a figment ,or fantasy of someone's mind ,a person who does not have the foggiest idea of what they are talking about,a lesson in futility to explain God.and an example of traditional Christianity. Leftovers from some ancient barbaric religion.Man was made in the image of "GOD",man was made MIND,BODYand SOUL.Mind-----the spirit or intellect of the soulSoul-----The essence or characteristic makeup of the person ( individuality if you like)Body----The house of the soul whether biological or spiritual. God gave us a biological body on this earth but he has also prepared a body for us to inhabit for eternity, he calls it a new body ,a house prepared.God explains himself quite adequately in his own word ,in the following verse from the bible.Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Do you notice that the son is called (Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.) Is this a trinity of three separate persons? No,it refers to one person.
Wonderful, Counsellor------the intelligence or intellect of God from which all wisdom comes .(God projects his thoughts throughout the universe)The mighty God, The everlasting Father------That which is God ,the essence or character of God.The Prince of Peace.------ Jesus Christ,God prepared a biological body for himself to dwell amongst men as Jesus Christ but he also has a spiritual body.Jesus Christ,The Father and the Holly Spirit are one and the same person.Now lets establish that Jesus Christ (GOD) walked the face of the earth before the advent of Gods soul inhabiting a flesh body.Gen. 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Ps 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.This order of Melchizedek was never bestowed upon a man,it has always been Christ's.
Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.There is only one high priest to God and King of Salem,a king and priest at the same time,namely Jesus Christ.Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.Make no mistake in that (like unto the Son of God) is in reference to anything other then the actual Jesus Christ,for no man has Christ's actual personal image for no man is made like unto the son of God.There are other reasons why God in the flesh is the son,and one is that God divorced Israel and his own law states that a man cannot remarry his divorced wife. But in Christ Israel is his bride whom he marries upon his returns as high priest and king.1 John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Man spouts the accepted traditions he has established ,having obtained a doctorate in his own philosophies,devoid of common sense from the word itself. He opens the word to interpretation and ignors the fact that the word explains itself. God does not care what man thinks,for it is from the spirit Of God that all wisdom comes .1 John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.The truth lies in the word but it is the spirit of truth that will guide a person in that word.Yes,no man can look upon the righteousness of God,that is why the bible says that no man has seen the face of God,but no man can look upon righteusness of any degree,for Moses had to cover his face after he came from mount Sinai.In closing I wish to bring your attention to some simple facts: God calls himself the I AM not the we are.(singular one person,not three). Would anyone dispute that he makes references to himself such as,ME,MINE,I. ?Would everyone concede that he has never refered to himself as we in his word unless he is talking about himself and addressing the host of heavanWell, just keep spouting accepted thought and tradition without thinking and spreading false imaginary doctrines ,to inanimte sponges that will soak it up. Talk about the blind leading the blind. That is the stuff people spread and the only proof is that it is the accepted thought established by tradition based on studies by men who have obtained philisophical doctorates. Paul was one of these men,and God took him into the desert for 3 years and re-educated him.I am in that desert,and I may be in it longer than 3 years,and in fact I have been. I don't know all things but am learning and consider myself a work in progress.(must still be in the caterpillar stage)Until someone can explain what the relationship between the father and the son is in some other fashion that makes any sense this is where I stand.
My Seventh Response: edits in maroon and in ( ), as in: (this is an example of an edit)
I just looked at this discussion again and it is not worth it, I'm not going to go through his text, line by line, this person has come to the end of his usefullness. I think instead I would refer his accusations of 'playing my cards close to the vest' and such to my audio biible studies and to a lesser extent to my doctrine page (which, at least, contains information on my views of the nature of God).
The discussion with this individual had become more about him desperately trying to take the fight to me instead of discussing the doctrines of Arnold Murray, and really, in a certain sense he had a point, there is a real need for some good teaching, and I was not providing it. Still, my initial purpose was not to start a bible study ministry, but to share my experience with the Shepherd's chapel, and that has blossomed into something more than I expected. The thing is that I am a 36 year old man with a high school diploma a wife and six children. This ministry is not supported by anyone outside of my immediate family. So my time has come at a premium. I can only do what I can do as fast as I can do it.
Return to "The Shepherd's Chapel and Dr. Arnold Murray" Main Page
Return to Oraclesofgod.org